You see an abduction in progress....
This is a discussion on You see an abduction in progress.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Limatunes, and PaulG, my hat is off to you two. You summed up my and my wife's feeling on the matter very well.
America needs ...
March 24th, 2007 11:28 PM
Limatunes, and PaulG, my hat is off to you two. You summed up my and my wife's feeling on the matter very well.
America needs more folks like you who really know what right and wrong are.
March 25th, 2007 01:45 PM
Call lawyer on 'speed dial'. Video tape Everything. Wait while lawyer consults with partners on course of action (may take a few days). Continue videotaping. Call local news station. Call 911. Videotape man as he drives off with "victim". Sell videotape to news station. Talk with police when they show up and direct them to the news reporters.
Feel shame for not having the guts of PaulG. Try to remember why the name Kitty Genovese is important.
March 25th, 2007 02:05 PM
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
March 28th, 2007 09:05 PM
First off, I am LE, so my take on the situation might be different then some. If I witnessed the situation described, the only thing Im going to be thinking is, "the lady is in trouble and I need to assist." I would approach with my gun drawn. I would instruct him to release her and keep his hands were I can see them. Now, if I were off duty, I would get on my phone and call it in, while holding him at gun point. If, for some reason, he doesn't comply with my commands, then Im going to advance as much as I can to make sure my shots hit him and not the victim. If a citizen took lethal action, then your fate is really up to the 12 in the jury. If I stood by, watched this happen and did nothing, and this girl was found in a ditch dead a day or two later, It would probobly make me want to kill myself. Also, I would rather spend the rest of my days in jail, than living with the guilt of not helping someone who's life is in danger.
March 28th, 2007 09:10 PM
I thought LEOs were following the same reasoning that we all follow, that you only shoot if you are threatened, or additionally for LEOs if the perpetrator is dangerous and in flight.
Originally Posted by bmwaddicted
You are stating that you would shoot if he didn't follow your commands. I'm not sure that is what you meant to say, maybe it is.
Also, LEOs are also judged by 12 when prosecuted for wrongful or negligent homicide.
Your post confuses me, please elaborate.
March 28th, 2007 09:23 PM
As an LE, I can pull my weapon as a preventitive measure if someone is committing a felony. If he continues to try to force the girl in the car, then Im going to fire. Yes, I would be held under the same laws as a regular citizen. The only difference is, Im obligated to take action AND subdue the suspect. I view the abduction as a lethal threat against the womans life.
March 29th, 2007 02:49 AM
I can't think of anyway to say this without offending someone so I'm going to try to say this without offending everyone. Theres a saying in the Army that if you pass by something wrong without correcting it you have just made it the new standard.
All the information thats put out on this and similar forums, as well as through the drive by media, and through the passing study of criminals and the history of crime make it clear that the victim in the given scenario IS going to be raped, tortured, and murdered, and that the perpertrator in the given scenario has conducted this type of behavior before and will do it again and again and again. Notice the emphasis on "IS" and notice the lack of the word "might". Yeah yeah yeah, it might be a father/brother/priest/UC LEO/ who just doesn't happen to understand that having a gun pointed at him and being told to stop means that someone thinks he's doing something he shouldn't be but I'm going to apply the reasonable man doctrine to the what if's. Someone doing something with good intentions will explain themselves.
With all the information released on this type of scenario I can't considered ignorance to be a legit excuse for the cowardice portrayed in some of these responses that say " I'm going to watch this poor person get slaughtered because it's not happening to me" The really funny thing though, the justice of it is that people in the mindset of "watch and tell" will (notice again the lack of the word might) maintain that mindset when the wolves are their door as well. If your seeing this type of thing happen it means its close to you and yours and if he gets away he's a threat to you and yours. If he gets a shot off that round, even if it's not fired with the intention of hitting you and yours, is a threat, because we all know how often rounds fired under stress hit their intended target.
In Florida, this is considered a violent felony and their is no right to protect law so this is a justified shoot. BUT as I used to argue that just because we have a legal right to do something does mean we have a moral right to do it, I'll say that the reverse is also true, even if we don't have a legal responsibility, we have a moral responsibility. I would rather die today, broke, and in prison, than be alive tomorrow and thought of as a coward who ALLOWED an innocent person to violated. Whos' that bald headed guy that plays that crooked cop on that tv show that said " You picked the wrong guy. I don't step aside, I step up".
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
March 29th, 2007 02:57 PM
If it's my loved one, it will be much easier for me to figure out that it is in fact a violent encounter and a forcible felony is in progress. If I don't know the person, I am not as able to tell if they are blowing things out of proportion or something ridiculous like that.
If a loved one, I would have no qualms about taking swift, decisive, and (if necessary) violent action in order to stop the threat. I would not use any more force than is necessary to stop the threat. If it's a loved one, I would make sure and use their NAME so that people would know that i know what's going on and am not just a clueless stranger...maybe even throw in some terms of endearment for good measure. There will be no confusion that this guy only has one way to NOT get shot...and that is to drop the girl, hit the dirt (face first), and put his hands behind his head till the cops arrive. Anything short of letting the girl go will have to result in decisive action against his person. He's already attempted a forcible felony in FL, I won't wait for him to commit another (murder/battery). Just my $.02. FWIW.
March 29th, 2007 03:10 PM
Of course. When it's your loved one you will almost certainly know what's happening. But the more interesting scenario, as originally presented, is that you don't know either of the people. You just see something that looks to you a lot like an abduction, but beyond what you see you don't know anything at all about what's happening.
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice
In that situation, when you really don't know what is happening, you need to proceed with EXTREME CAUTION! Things may not be at all the way they appear. Pull your gun and start barking orders at the guy and you may have just bought yourself a whole world of trouble.
Last edited by denverd0n; March 29th, 2007 at 04:12 PM.
March 29th, 2007 07:01 PM
As an LE, I can pull my weapon as a preventitive measure if someone is committing a felony.
As a former Leo, I understand the felony in presence comment. Also with that former training, law knowlefge, etc, I'm witnessing a felony in my presence as a civilian as well.
The felony is abduction/kidknapping, as I've mentioned in my previous posts. NO ONE has the right to restrict your freedom unless you are under arrest, NO ONE.
The make does not have the right to "hold", "force" or any other action of the same description someone against their will to submit, and in public it may buy you some of the responses we've seen here, or worse.
I'll stand by my previous posts and what actions I'll take to prevent the male from leaving with the girl. He shows he has lawful rights to arrest and detain, he gets a walk. He doesn't, he doesn't get the free pass and walk, it's really that simple.
" I view the abduction as a lethal threat against the womans life."
And there is the crux of the reason behind my posts.
Good call sir.
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