You see an abduction in progress....

This is a discussion on You see an abduction in progress.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am watching a show on MSNBC as I worked out tonight about the abduction of a 17 year old girl in Nebraska named Ann ...

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Thread: You see an abduction in progress....

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    You see an abduction in progress....

    I am watching a show on MSNBC as I worked out tonight about the abduction of a 17 year old girl in Nebraska named Ann Sluti. A career criminal, who was 6 foot one and 200 pounds, grabbed her from a mall parking lot while she was walking to her car. Several people witnessed the abduction and called police with good descriptions of the abductor and the vehicle but, he still gets away. She was liberated several days later, alive but abused.

    Now to the scenario. You are in a mall parking lot, or walking on your street and you witness a similar situation. A woman / girl is being dragged toward a car by a large man. The female is screaming and yelling that she does not know who this guy is and that she is being kidnapped.
    What do you do. Just be a good witness or do you draw and try to stop the scum bag? What does the la of your state allow you to do?

    Can you overcome the urge to draw and double tap this scum before he makes good his getaway with the young girl?

    Would your actions be different if you knew the female being abducted? Or if it was your own daughter?
    I know that if it was my daughter the scum would get 2 165 grain golden sabers to the torso as fast as I could pull the trigger. If it was not my daughter, I am not 100% sure what I would do to be honest.

    All I know is this: if my daughter was being abducted and I was not there to stop it but one or two of you guys were there. I would want you to intervene with deadly force if necessary to save her. And I'm sure that thought would go through my mind if I witnessed someone else's daughter being abducted in front of me.

    Your thoughts please.
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  3. #2
    Member Array Alaskan454's Avatar
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    In Virginia, use of force (up to and including deadly force) is legal if you fear for your own life, or for the life of a third party. That being said, I would not likely intervene unless I had witnessed the entire situation and had absolutely no doubt of what was going on. If I felt 100% certain of the facts of the situation, and was in a position to neutralize the BG with negligible risk to the victim or bystanders, I would probably skim the gene pool, but it would depend on how I felt at that moment. I have no desire to be a hero. If the female in the scenario were my wife, sister or mother (I don't have a daughter) I would most certainly shoot.
    ... and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. - Luke 22:36

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    Under Florida law, the use of deadly force is permissible to stop the commission of a forcible felony, and kidnapping is a forcible felony under F.S. 776.08. So from a legal standpoint, deadly force is an option here.

    If this is, in fact, a stranger abduction of a child, there is a significant chance that she is going to be killed. I am not going to be the last one to see this girl alive.

    If the subject has not displayed a weapon, I am going to challenge him first, without drawing or even mentioning deadly force, as 911 gets called. If he continues his actions, he gets a dose of OC, or maybe an old fashioned thumping, depending on what I have on me at the time.

    If he has a weapon, or the above does not work, deadly force comes into play, either threatened or used.

    I have no desire to be a hero, but I am not going to be the last person to see this child alive. If all else fails, he'll get one final order to release her, delivered from behind the muzzle. Failure to comply will result in shots fired.

    It's a tough situation, but if I am forced to choose between living with having shot this guy, or living with the knowledge that I could have stopped something terrible from happening to the girl but didn't, I'll go with the former.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    I typically stay away from John Wayne/Clint Eastwood responses, and nobody knows for sure how they would react because there are so many variables involved. However I can only hope that I would act in some manner to help this girl. If it was my daughter I would react the same as Sig 229. I will not wait under these circumstances to see if the bad guy has a weapon, I feel this girls life is in danger that is all that I need to prove. Why wait and let he get the draw on you. I suppose I would find immediate cover, draw my weapon and it a solid firm voice command the individual to release the girl and advise him that 911 has been called. I hope somebody would call them, as I will not take the time, depending on the circumstance. I couldn't live with myself if something happened to that child and I did nothing to help. Some folks this doesn't bother, but to me it would. I am to old to be going fist to cuff with anybody anymore and would avoid this at all costs. Again so many variables that could alter a decision one way or the other. But knowing myself the way I do and knowing what I have done in past circumstances would lead me to believe the above is the action I would take. I hope it never comes to that.
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

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    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Perverts

    Too many young girls in this situation end up dead. I would have to take this BG on. I would want someone to do the same if it were my daughter. I couldn't stand to read about her in the paper knowing that I could have helped her. This is something that happens far to often in Florida. I hate perverts they get put away for too short a time and are let out to do the same thing again. I think any one on this forum would do the same to save the girl or child.

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    Action tends to bring more action. Most people don't want to be first, but they will join in. This is where the sheep mentality can work for you.

    If I personally knew the girl it is one reaction, swift and painful for the BG. If it was a total stranger a much more restrained reaction. However, I would block his path. Use a shopping cart and parked cars to assist in that regard. Start yelling fire so that people would come running (people love to see stuff on fire). If it is legitimate then the police will arrive and sort it out. If it isn't then you have possibly prevented a kidnapping, rape and or murder.

    It all depends on a lot of observed cues as well. It could be a cop who just went hands on with a suspect. You pull your gun on the cop, his back up is going to put you down hard. You force him to release the girl then a suspect escapes depending on where his backup is.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  8. #7
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Even though she is shouting out that she does not know the guy and that she is being abducted I would refrain from lethal force.
    Women, like men, are sometimes irrational. It has been known that within in the confines of a dispute between man and wife, or boy and girl, the argument progresses to a point where the woman will attempt to incriminate her partner for something he hasn't actually done.
    It's on COPS fairly regularly.
    One such scenario could be a dispute involving a man who has caught his wife on drugs, or cheating, and decides to drag her home. She calls out that she doesn't know him and is being abducted.
    Does this sound beyond the realms of possibility? Not to me.
    Thus I would not shoot.
    That is my decision and mine alone, but I am not Judge, Jury and Executioner on matters other than my own safety and that of my wife. I have to say there is too much margin for error and too many legal liabilities for me to get involved beyond calling 911.
    Of course I could mention in the 911 call that I believe I saw a gun, and that I believe he may have fired that gun. Nothing better than getting an immediate response, and if they are indeed just having a fight then having SWAT attend may just sober them up to the error of their ways.

    I would call 911.
    I would monitor them from a safe distance.

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    The girl could be on drugs or mentally unbalanced and the guy could be someone in her family familiar with her condition.

    Unless I know the girl I would call 911, stay on the line, and relay information as thing develope.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

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    A better response would be to try and block escape of the two subjects. Unless you know the abductee, I would hesitate to draw and fire. I know my daughter(12) has made all kind of outrageous claims when mad at me too.
    Bottom line, be sure of the situation you are getting in before going too far. As CCW holders , we are not LE.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Unless it was a family member I think I'd opt for 911 and being a good witness. To many variables in interfering with a stranger.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  12. #11
    Distinguished Member Array Bob The Great's Avatar
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    Hard to say what the "best" course of action would be. First, if I'm walking to my car and see this go down, I won't know exactly what's going on. It might be an abduction, or it might be a domestic dispute. I really want to avoid using force if it's the latter, as I'm sure we all have heard horror stories about bystanders breaking up a fighting couple and ending up being attacked by both of them for his trouble.

    But at the same time, if I did nothing and saw the headline the next morning, I would feel like the scum of the earth for not helping when I had the opportunity.

    I think the prudent thing to do is approach with my cell phone out (weak hand), loudly get their attention, and ask if everybody is ok. I would make a non-violent loud scene, and try to draw other people's attention to what was happening. The name of the game is to stall them and basically freeze the situation until the cops arrive to sort it out.

    If we're talking about a girl I know well or am related to, I would be more willing to intervene with force if the situation demanded it, but my basic response would be the same. Of course, this is complicated by the fact that the abductee will almost certainly be close to the abductor and in your line of fire. In a worst case scenario, if he produces a weapon or begins beating her or attacking me, I would have to play the situation by ear, and watch for a clear firing lane to end the attack. That situation gets nasty though, and it's a last resort for sure.

  13. #12
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    How do you know that it is the girls father and she is acting out or as obxned said maybe mential issues you run up and shoot him now what?
    Unless you know the parties involved how do know there is anything wrong, again not all things are as they appear.
    Intervene if you choose but deadly force is the last option not the first.

  14. #13
    New Member Array hawgrider's Avatar
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    I am kinda with OBXNED - NC law does allow to help and use the neccessary force etc - problem is you have to be 100% certain you know the circumstances behind all this or you can and will be held liable. Do you really know what is going on? Maybe she is being taken by an undercover LEO. Maybe she is involved in some kind of drug ring etc? Yes its hard to sit back and do nothing possibly but not knowing the circumstances short of it being one of your relatives may put you in the hot seat. 911 and go from there. Its a shame to where our society has gone but .........

  15. #14
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotammo View Post
    How do you know that it is the girls father and she is acting out or as obxned said maybe mential issues you run up and shoot him now what?
    Unless you know the parties involved how do know there is anything wrong, again not all things are as they appear.
    Intervene if you choose but deadly force is the last option not the first.
    I really don't see anyone advocating the "run up and shoot him" approach.

    Everyone who has posted has indicated that they would verbally engage the subject first, then take further action based on what follows.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    I never said I would shoot the guy, unless it was my own daughter that is. But I would keep him from dragging her into a vehicle at all costs. If he is LE he would identify himself as and then you need to decide if he's telling the truth. But once the BG gets her in tha car and it is an abduction, chances are she will never be seen again so immediate action would be required much more than making a phone call, again to many variables to say 100% what you would do, if he was 250ft from his vehicle than a verbal approach may be a good start, if he is physically trying to force her into the car, something more than words need to happen. Like I said I hope none of us would be put in this situation, but at least nobody said they would turn and walk the other way, because in reality that is what most would chose to do. How many of you investigate a car alarm going off in a busy shopping mall parking lot?
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

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