Fist fight while carrying

This is a discussion on Fist fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In 18 years of carrying there were 2 instances that became physical while being armed. I didn't draw in either of them. Looking back at ...

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Thread: Fist fight while carrying

  1. #31
    kpw
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    In 18 years of carrying there were 2 instances that became physical while being armed. I didn't draw in either of them. Looking back at it, the first instance might have been avoidable, maybe. The second instance there was no avoiding it. It really had nothing to do with me at all but that I was there. He was intent on fighting somebody and I was the closest guy. I walked in on the situation and was involved before I even said hello to anyone. There was no time to draw a pistol, OC or anything if I had wanted to. Both instances turned out better for me than them but I rather not have any. Do your best to avoid trouble and you usually can but life can be unpredictable, even for the most vigil of people. Btw, neither instance happened at a bar. The first was at a softball game and the second a relative's wedding.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by robere View Post
    I think the thing I worry about most is getting into a fist fight with someone that is about my size or smaller while carrying. If they are bigger, they are more of a threat. Once you pull a gun, things change real quick and you're committed to using deadly force if neccessary. But I may hesitate pulling my gun if the guy is smaller or may be my size, but if I fight the guy, my weapon could be dislodged, fall out and used against me.
    In Ky we do have the Castle Doctrine. If my gun did become dislodged , then my life is in jeapordy. But if I pull it on anyone no matter their size,would it be considered a viable cause for pulling a gun? I do feel I would be in fear for my life because I know one hit from someone could be lethal, another reason would be in fear of my gun becoming dislodged in the scuffle..

    Anyone that carries a weapon needs to be fully versed on the legalities of using potentially deadly force. Three things must be present: Ability, Opportunity and Jeapordy. Does the person have the ability, usually it is considered yes if they are concious. Opportunity, is the weapon or means to do potentialy serious bodily harm or death present, knife, gun, ball bat, is the person known by you prior to the attack to be a martial artist, professional boxer. Then there is Jeapordy, is this person with the proximity to effect his means? A knife at 10 feet yes, a knife at 50 feet maybe not, but a gun at 50 feet yes. Kind of get the idea there. You cannot simply pull a gun on someone because you get in a fight.

    Disparity of force issues come up a lot, size, age, numbers, male against female, physical handi-caps.

    You are much more likely to become involved in a physical confrontation that a gun fight for sure and all the more reason to seek some hand to hand skills. One of the best classes I know of that intregrates hand to hand with real world gun skill sis given by SouthNarc ( www.shivworks.com )This is the heat for real life stuff.


    A lot of things should be taken into consideration, holster selection, draw stroke, presentation, retention, take aways, malfunctions, and much more.
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  4. #33
    Member Array Gun Loving Liveral's Avatar
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    It's been 40 years or so since I was in a fist fight, way back in high school. To be honest, it has been so long I don't remember even how to fight. I agree with all that conflict resolution, cooling down the situation works almost all the time, along with forethought to keep out of troublesome situations can avoid almost all fights ("Don't look for trouble and trouble won't find you",--Some Hobbitt).
    However, in the very unlikely chance that someone will not cease and desist no matter how hard I try to back out of it or cool it down, I will draw and use my weapon if I honestly think I will be punched otherwise. One reason is I have fewer options now than I did. I wore my knees out running. For many years I felt confident I could run successfully from most trouble. Now I cannot. I also have 2 stints in my heart. Would body blows from an assailant dislodge or close them? Probably not. But we are not going to find out if I can help it. I have my CC liscense so I can defend myself if there is not other choice.
    In Oklahoma, even we liberals like guns!

  5. #34
    Member Array FIREARMZ's Avatar
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    The heart stints may very well be a disparity of force issue for you. What I see in classes and talking to people in prison is that when we get a CCW a lot of people become gun people. If everything looks like a nail we will always use the hammer. Being delusional in your thought process that a gun will fix everything is not healthy. People seem to be drawn in thinking I am an honest law abiding citizen and what I do will be right, well right does not necessarily mean legal and vise versa.

    Oh yes I said prison, I work in one and we have a couple of people doing 10 years because they thought they were doing the right thing. Your jury selection may not agree and after thousands of dollars and a guilty sentence you may change your idea.

    You simply cannot draw a gun and shoot someone because they are going to fight you.
    Ken Forbus Owner of FIREARMZ
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  6. #35
    Member Array jb32765's Avatar
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    As other posts have stated ,it is better to avoid a confrontation.
    However your best bet is to turn your non gun side to the actor , lock your strong hand down on your weapon, and get out of there.
    If the threat warrants deadly force your hand is already on your weapon to draw it and neutralize the threat.

  7. #36
    Member Array jb32765's Avatar
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    A less than lethal weapon such as a Taser or O.C. might be an intermediate measure to stop a fight, but be careful of the wind if you use O.C. you'll be a sitting duck if your gagging and blinded the B.G. could then easily get your weapon.

  8. #37
    Member Array echo5tango's Avatar
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    i'm sure it's already been said; no, i didn't read through every single post ... as a civilian carrying a concealed weapon, i may have a right to use my weapon, but that doesn't necessarily mean i have to use my weapon ... the same is said about a drawn weapon - just because it's drawn doesn't mean it has to be used.

    a man is a man is a man, i don't care what size he is. get that through your skull early, because you have NO idea what that guy can do to you even if you out weigh him by 100 lbs.!

    as has been said, get some training in retention, and i think it's a great benefit to undergo non-lethal weapons training. OC level 1 sucked big time, but it taught me a lot i couldn't learn just by reading or watching! however, OC is not magic-in-a-can by any stretch of the imagination.

    the bottom line to me is know your limitations and work within them. do NOT over-estimate your abilities ... that's the easiest way to learn a "life lesson".

  9. #38
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    Big guy weighs in on the issue

    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye07 View Post

    As far as the arguement of someone smaller vs someone bigger, here is my take on it. Usually I would rather get into a fight with someone bigger than me, here is why: they do tend to be stronger, but they are slower, and tend to telegraph their moves (doesn't apply to UFC fighters, but does in general), they also tend to be untrained in fighting styles, relying on their sheer mass to intimidate the other person into submission, or they go for one big punch.
    I agree with your observations, and add:

    Speaking as a BIG GUY, I never got into fights once I made it into high school, because most people were afraid to take me on, thus, I am ill equipped (experience-wise) to get into a street fight. In my former career as a Security Officer, I often used my size against those resisting arrest, as I could "bulldog" them into submission by pinning them against the ground or a wall.

    There are some BIG GUYS that like to throw their weight around, so don't think that BIG GUYS are pushovers based on my street fight experience.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  10. #39
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    It seems that everyone is in agreement so far.

    I've always said that when you take on the responsibility of carrying a gun, you give up your God given right to be a jerk.

    Everyone seems to have this thought in mind.

    As for when you can't disengage safely, then you need to meet the thread with the least amount of force that appears justified with you at that moment.

    I don't think you can second guess what a prosecutor or jury will do later. If you honestly feel that the disparity of force is in place react accordingly. After all, what a jury might say later doesn't matter if you are dead.

    The sad truth is that in such a situation you will have a VERY little amount of time to decided what to do.

    Retention holster, retention training, etc. are all good suggestions.

    I will leave the gun holstered until I feel that my life is in such imminent danger that lethal force is justified.

    Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  11. #40
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    Maybe I am oversimplifying...

    My plan is to meet force with relative force.

    I will avoid altercations by all means. If put into one despite this, especially fist fights, I will use pepper spray. That is my plan for any non-avoidable yet non-deadly encounters. If he brings out a knife or gun, then obviously we step pup the level of force.

  12. #41
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    I think that people get into "fistfights" mostly when they are looking for trouble, or voluntarily going to places where trouble is found. I think it's relatively easy to go through life not getting into fistfights.

    If we go about our lives with a proper awareness, we probably can see danger coming from far enough away that we can address it adequately. That means, in some cases, running away and being thought a coward, rather than standing for (what the aggressor believes will be) only a fistfight. If you carry a gun, it's your responsibility to keep that kind of thing from happening.

    If the person who wants a fistfight is truly a serious threat to your safety, then make the determination as to whether the threat rises to the level where you can draw your handgun. If not, decide two things: DO NOT fistfight him, and GET AWAY.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheckigreen View Post
    Maybe I am oversimplifying...

    My plan is to meet force with relative force.

    I will avoid altercations by all means. If put into one despite this, especially fist fights, I will use pepper spray. That is my plan for any non-avoidable yet non-deadly encounters. If he brings out a knife or gun, then obviously we step pup the level of force.
    Though it may only be semantics, you are actually escalating the "use of force continuum" ... which is what should be done. What I'm saying is I don't think it's good to justify in your mind "I'm meeting his force with my force" ... instead I think it should be, "I'm taking this up a notch to crush his will to do me harm."

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by echo5tango View Post
    Though it may only be semantics, you are actually escalating the "use of force continuum" ... which is what should be done. What I'm saying is I don't think it's good to justify in your mind "I'm meeting his force with my force" ... instead I think it should be, "I'm taking this up a notch to crush his will to do me harm."
    Good point...i need to restate this...

    I would meet the force that is threatened against me (as opposed to waiting for him to strike me first with the force). And to me, pepper spray is suitable and equal to throwing fists, etc.

  15. #44
    kpw
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I think that people get into "fistfights" mostly when they are looking for trouble, or voluntarily going to places where trouble is found. I think it's relatively easy to go through life not getting into fistfights.

    If we go about our lives with a proper awareness, we probably can see danger coming from far enough away that we can address it adequately. That means, in some cases, running away and being thought a coward, rather than standing for (what the aggressor believes will be) only a fistfight. If you carry a gun, it's your responsibility to keep that kind of thing from happening.

    If the person who wants a fistfight is truly a serious threat to your safety, then make the determination as to whether the threat rises to the level where you can draw your handgun. If not, decide two things: DO NOT fistfight him, and GET AWAY.
    I wish that were completely true. I'm afraid that for many people it isn't always that easy. There are people that make it difficult, if not impossible to get away from and feel the need for conflict. Most often they may be in bad places but often times they can be anywhere at anytime.
    I'll not live my life worried about the boogeyman. I'll avoid him when possible but if I meet him, I'll do everything I can to get home again. I don't avoid going to places that I can't be armed at just because I can't carry. Life is to be lived not just gotten through. I have yet to find a good way to conceal in swimming trunks while going down a water slide. I guess the point of all of my senseless babble is that carrying a weapon of any type is just a small part of being prepared. Part of being prepared is being prepared to be surprised because it does happen to even the most vigil of people. It's how you react to being surprised that can determine the outcome.
    Those that have been fortunate enough to not have had to fight in their lifetime have probably displayed a lot of common sense with a little bit of luck as well. Well that's my nickle's worth of rambling, I'll sit back and be quiet now.

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheckigreen View Post
    Good point...i need to restate this...

    I would meet the force that is threatened against me (as opposed to waiting for him to strike me first with the force). And to me, pepper spray is suitable and equal to throwing fists, etc.
    Rock 'n' roll! I completely agree

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