Fist fight while carrying - Page 5

Fist fight while carrying

This is a discussion on Fist fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just today in the west coast of Puerto Rico a college student was murdered in what started as a fist fight. The victim was eating ...

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  1. #61
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    Just today in the west coast of Puerto Rico a college student was murdered in what started as a fist fight.

    The victim was eating at a BKs restaurant and tried to walk away from the instigator. The agressor waited for the victim outside, started throwing punches at the victim and seeing he wasn't being efective, he pulled out a knife and slashed the poor kids throat. The kid bled to death in minutes.

    Just remember, a weapon can come out of nowhere real fast and hurt your real bad at such a close range.

    Since there were a lot of witnesses around, the guy was caught and was sent to jail - and guess what, he was on parole for murder on the 1st degree.


  2. #62
    Member Array Gadfly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREARMZ View Post
    What I see in classes and talking to people in prison is that when we get a CCW a lot of people become gun people. If everything looks like a nail we will always use the hammer. Being delusional in your thought process that a gun will fix everything is not healthy.

    You simply cannot draw a gun and shoot someone because they are going to fight you.
    I agree with the hammer-nail analogy: as firearms carriers, we hold the 'nuclear option'--but not all situations call for nukes. If everything look like a 'nail'--it could lead to an unnecessary shooting. Gun users are 'martial artists' whether they realize it or not. Martial artists always have the duty to avoid conflict and to take the 'high road'.

    You can't take back a bullet. It can, and probably will, change your life if comes to pulling the trigger. Even a 'righteous shooting' can bankrupt a person. Something else to ponder when carrying, I guess.

    I'm glad that I carry and feel good about doing so. But I also carry a mean Thai kick, a decent left hook, a sharp folder in my back pocket--and of course, my Kimber. I avoid conflict like the plague, but when pressed, I will always--always--give myself the benefit of every doubt.
    Don't forget to bow as the chariot passes.

  3. #63
    Member Array JaredMcLaughlin's Avatar
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    Been there done that. Make sure your holster has some retention capability. I've been in situations where there was no way out but through. Avoiding these is the best idea, but if your already there try to avoid the firearm. My thinking is it only gets drawn right before it fires. My tolerance for those sorts of situations is pretty high. Some evidence to the contrary, most fist fights don't end in death and therefore don't require firearms. Respond with equal force.

  4. #64
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robere View Post
    Once you pull a gun, things change real quick and you're committed to using deadly force if neccessary.
    Myth. Drawing does not require usage. There's no commitment, per se. However, you'd better be justified prior to drawing, else you'll have much to explain.

    ... if I fight the guy, my weapon could be dislodged, fall out and used against me. If my gun did become dislodged , then my life is in jeapordy [sic]. But if I pull it on anyone no matter their size,would it be considered a viable cause for pulling a gun?
    News flash: fear of your own action is insufficient cause to fear an attacker's action. IMO, a mere scuffle is not sufficient cause, and I don't believe any jury anywhere in the U.S. would believe that. So long as the attacker stops short of threatening your life, I don't think you would be justified in the use of deadly force.

    Reference the principles of Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, then ask yourself the same question again.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  5. #65
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    The best thing to do when someone is coming at you with intent to do harm is keep your space from them. I think it would be a very bad decision to get into a fight with someone while carrying. Despite what holster you're using, the gun can come out and be used against you. This is something I personally would never let happen. When someone is verbally and or physically threatening, they just assaulted you. That gives you the right to take preventive action. So, if the assailant takes away my what I call my safe distance, Im drawing my weapon. Most aggressors at this point would retreat. If they keep coming towards me for some reason, then I'll shoot.

  6. #66
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    The best thing to do when someone is coming at you with intent to do harm is keep your space from them. I think it would be a very bad decision to get into a fight with someone while carrying. Despite what holster you're using, the gun can come out and be used against you. This is something I personally would never let happen. When someone is verbally and or physically threatening, they just assaulted you. That gives you the right to take preventive action. So, if the assailant takes away my what I call my safe distance, Im drawing my weapon. Most aggressors at this point would retreat. If they keep coming towards me for some reason, then I'll shoot.
    Br careful with this mind set. Just because someone assaults you and violates your "personal space" does not mean they pose the threat of serious bodily harm or death. Most "one on one" fist fights are NOT a threat of death or serious bodily harm, and you would not be justified to use your gun.

    Furthermore, if you draw your gun expecting your attacker to "turn tail and run" he may not do that. At this point YOU just escalated the situation and are now at fault.

    I agree that we should avoid confrontations, but people do have bad days and things can happen. Suppose you and I are both having a bad day, and we run into each other and an argument ensues. Now let’s suppose you take my yelling and walking towards you as a "threat" and you decide to pull your gun on me expecting me to turn tail and run. I also have a gun and now I AM justified in shooting you because you escalated to deadly force without cause. Now suppose I am an off duty police officer, what then?? Just some things to think about.

    When dealing with a non-lethal situation the points I am trying to make are this:
    -Never escalate the situation, always make every attempt to retreat or at least try to calm things down. It is very hard to have an argument or fight with someone who only wants to leave and clam the situation down.
    -Your gun should stay out of sight until you need and are justified to use it, it should NEVER be used to just "scare someone".
    -Always assume your actions are being video taped and act accordingly. If you do this your actions should never come back to haunt you.
    -Finally, call 911 ASAP (during the confrontation if you can), remain on the line so your attempts to retreat and calm the situation and your attacker’s advances will all be recorded.

    Don't let your guard down, because a non-lethal situation can become deadly in an instant, just don't be the one responsible for taking it to that level.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  7. #67
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    I still stand behind the positiom that the last thing I want to do is get In a physical altercation with someone if I have a loaded gun on my hip. There is just too much risk involved. If someone that is what I view as a threat, and I draw on them, they have two options. 1) they leave, which is what they should have done In they first place. Or 2) they continue, and I take action. If, at that point they too have a gun and decide to pull it out, then Im going to fire on them before their gun leaves their holster. People that carry need to avoid confrontation at all cost, Im not arguing that. But if they can't, I don't view fighting with someone is even an option. Also, I never said I would pull it to 'scare someone'. I would pull my gun with the intent to use it. But at the same time, Im not going to shoot someone that clearly has a change of heart when he can see I now have a gun pointed at him.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Array Weeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    People that carry need to avoid confrontation at all cost, Im not arguing that. .

    yup...The term I use when I give cc classes is


    "when you carry, 'discretion is the better part of valor'..."


    .

  9. #69
    DRT
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    Whenever possible, the smart move is to walk away. Why?

    1) Some states may take away your CCW with a misdemeanor assault conviction (i.e. fist fight with no weapons involved)

    2) God forbid if you are ever actually in a legitimate deadly force situation, the last thing you want is a record, or prior history, demonstrating your tendancy towards physical altercations/violence. Could be used against you, criminally or civily, to show you're a hot-head, etc.

    3) Why bother yourself with the aggrevation? In retrospect, most fist-fight situations are over things that are really pretty minor, and while you might be upset at that moment, in retrospect, they don't warrant the potential physical, criminal, civil ramifications that may occur.
    Last edited by DRT; March 25th, 2007 at 10:20 AM.

  10. #70
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    Also, I never said I would pull it to 'scare someone'. I would pull my gun with the intent to use it. But at the same time, Im not going to shoot someone that clearly has a change of heart when he can see I now have a gun pointed at him.
    Ok, you never said you would pull your gun to scare someone, what you said was:
    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    When someone is verbally and or physically threatening, they just assaulted you. That gives you the right to take preventive action. So, if the assailant takes away my what I call my safe distance, Im drawing my weapon. Most aggressors at this point would retreat. If they keep coming towards me for some reason, then I'll shoot.
    So, if someone is "verbally threatening you" and then they violate your "safe distance" you are going to "draw your weapon". According to your next statement, you would never pull your gun to scare someone, you will only "pull your gun with the intent to use it".

    So, I now ask you:
    -Do you feel you have the justification to pull AND fire on an unarmed assailant who only verbally assaulted you, violated your personal space, and then did not turn tail and run when you pulled your gun???

    I will tell you before you answer that you would NOT be justified under the law in ANY of the 50 states. And YOU would be responsible for escalating the confrontation to the level of deadly force, and you would now be the assailant. Furthermore, if the person who you are "drawing on" is armed and you guys get into a shootout, he would be fully justified to use deadly force and you would be looking at felony charges.

    I am not trying to argue with you about this, I am only trying to show you the outcome of your actions. Do what you want, but understand that if I witness this encounter, my gun will be pointed at YOU not your assailant.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  11. #71
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    First of all, let me say that I agree with everyone who said that you should avoid a fight of any kind if at all possible.

    BMWADDICTED – I don’t think that your idea of when you are justified in drawing your gun will fly. However, since Polar Bear already covered that quite nicely, I won’t re-address that statement.

    What I want to talk about is your statement that “fighting with someone is not an option”. I sincerely hope that if you are ever attacked, you can pull that off.

    I do believe that in most lethal force situations, distance is your friend.

    However, I don't believe that we can always or even most of the time, create this needed distance when the fight is on.

    During a fight you may not get to choose what is or is not an option.

    If you are in a parking lot and someone suspicious starts coming toward you, you can probably ascertain his purpose (good or evil) before he gets too close to you and start the avoidance procedures then.

    But at a crowded mall or even while going into or out of a store ANYWHERE, the bad guy could be coming through the door the same time you do. Let’s assume that he doesn’t look like a bad guy and has done nothing suspicious. What do you do? Run away until you reach the mythical 21 foot mark?

    The bad guy (or gal) could be walking down a grocery store isle passing you. He may give no indication that he is a bad guy until he attacks bare handed or with a blade.

    If he attacks at that point, you had better have some hand-to-hand skills or you will not get the chance to even draw your gun much less create distance.

    It doesn’t matter whether you are a trained ninja, jedi, Rambo dude or an old retiree who walks with a cane. The fight is what the fight is, not what you want it to be.

    I believed this before I had a force-on-force session but the class just reaffirmed this to be FACT.

    I also agree with Robere that once you pull the gun, you have committed to lethal force if necessary. Sure, the bad guy could back away at that point but he could also attack with more fury after seeing your gun. Maybe you just convinced him that he has to attack you or die. You might possibly have just escalated a simple fist fight into a deadly confrontation by pulling the gun.

    I believe that we think of ourselves as gun guys way too much. We should start thinking of ourselves as fighters and defenders who have guns as one of the tools at our disposal.

    My point is that even though I don’t want to get into a fist fight, knife fight or gun fight, I want to have my “toolbox” full of things to help me survive the conflict whatever it may be.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  12. #72
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    When someone is threating you, it can be considered a lethal threat no matter how you cut it. I don't know this person. How do I know when he is coming at me that he is not going to pull a knive or gun? How do I know this guy isn't a black belt or a professional boxer. And to add to it, you know that If he lays hands on you that there is a gun involved; your gun. I would rather have my gun out of my holster in this situation and ready; then waiting until he has beaten the crap out of me and then shot me with my own gun. And further more, I've heard of several situations were a person was killed with one punch. SO who's to say that fists can be any less lethal than a bullet. All it takes is being hit hard enough in the right place. If I can get away, i will, but Im also not going to turn my back on someone I think is going to hit me.

  13. #73
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    On April 12, 2006, Florida resident Michael Brady got into an argument in his front yard with Justin Boyette, a friend of a neighbor. After a few minutes of bickering, Boyette threatened to punch him, so Brady pulled out a gun; Brady shot and killed him. Because of the Stand-your-ground law, Brady got off with no legal action taken against him. In kansas, we also have the stand-your-ground law, which states that Im not obligated to retreat. The funny thing is I got this info from an article that was against the stand-your-ground law, and was trying to use the incident as a way to argue against the law. But never the less, its still fact, and sets legal presidence behind my thinking.
    Last edited by bmwaddicted; March 25th, 2007 at 07:43 PM.

  14. #74
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    SO who's to say that fists can be any less lethal than a bullet.
    THE LAW! In a typical one on one fight, fists are not concidered the threat of lethal force.

    Ok, I understand now that there is nothing I can say that will change your mind so I am not going to say anything further about this.

    Good luck in everything you do. I hope you have a very good lawyer, and I hope you will never have to use him/her.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  15. #75
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    Polar Bear, I have avoided any and all pnysical confrontations for about 40 years, so I think I am pretty skilled at avoiding trouble and knowing how to keep away from situations I shouldn't be in in the first place. But I am curious, what would you recommend in the following scenario? You are walking the sidewalk in a usually quiet and low crime part of town in the morning. Suddenly a man, at least your size and strength, suddenly yells at you. He calls you by a name not yours and seems to think you are somebody else. You begin to back away, holding your hands out and open and speak calmly, "I don't want any trouble, what is wrong?' trying to defuse the situation. But he seems to get more angry. You can smell alcohol even at 15 feet away. He is red-faced, muscles tensed and he raises a clinched fist. Yelling with teeth bared, "I'm gonna knock your head off!" he heads toward you.
    Fortunately, this situation has never presented itself to me and I hope not to you. Maybe you have the martial arts skills to handle this, but I do not. Ten years ago I was a runner and could outrun him but now my knees are bad and I could not. You may be correct and the law would not be on my side if I drew my weapon and or used it. But I would rather take my chances spending time in court and paying a defense attorney than spedning time in a wheelchair and paying a reconstructive surgeon. That is assuming my wife was not a widow.
    Before anyone says I am itching for a fight note my previously mentioned 40 years of non-violence. But pretending we have a 100% guaraantee that nothing like the imaginary scenario will never happen or that we should take the chance that a physical attack by fists and legs will not be a deadly danger (!) is perilously close to blaming the victim.
    In Oklahoma, even we liberals like guns!

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