Fist fight while carrying

This is a discussion on Fist fight while carrying within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; [QUOTE=PolarBear;326648] Furthermore, if the person who you are "drawing on" is armed and you guys get into a shootout, he would be fully justified to ...

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Thread: Fist fight while carrying

  1. #76
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=PolarBear;326648] Furthermore, if the person who you are "drawing on" is armed and you guys get into a shootout, he would be fully justified to use deadly force and you would be looking at felony charges.

    Ok, so basically what your trying to say is that the person who came at me, with no provaction at all, would be justified to use lethal force if I drawed down on him? Im sorry, but thats straight BS. He was the one who originally started the confrontation, and I have every right to protect myself from bodily harm. I think that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I just hope for your sake that your way of thinking doesn't get you killed someday because you under-estimated a threat.

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  3. #77
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Gun Loving Liveral,

    I agree totally, and that is why I never said there are any absolutes in life. I used words like typical and most, not every or all. But the situation you describe will be few and far between, as your 40 confrontation free years is evidence to.

    I agree with you that in these extraordinary situations we may be forced to use our firearm to protect ourselves or our loved ones. But we would use our firearm only as a last resort, and we would do so knowing that we may not be protected under the law. And that is a choice we make. I know first hand that in the real world things can go from bad to worse in the blink of an eye, and you may have to make split second decisions to stay alive.

    This mind set is where we differ from bmwaddicted. bmwaddicted's statements demonstrate a mind set that he would draw and possibly fire NOT as a last resort but as one of his initial actions. Furthermore, he feels that his actions are completely legal and he would be totally justified. This mindset is a recipe for disaster.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  4. #78
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    First of all, i stated that my initail action would be to avoid the confrontation at all cost. Im not looking for an excuse to shoot someone. If I can back awy from the situation without having to take action, I will. But im not going to wait until someone is beating on me to draw my gun, because that thinking will get you dead. Now maybe your some kind of ninga that can go hand to hand with anyone, but im not. Im still very physically capable, but if someone puts a knife in my gut, then that me being capable to fight is irrelevant. And my way of thinking has been upheld in one court case I know of. And if I had time, and wanted to prove a point, IM SURE i could find more.

  5. #79
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    This thread is getting goofy.

    A fist fight is not deadly force unless the your opponent is far larger and more capable than yourself. I.E. a 80 year old woman is going to me OK in shooting a 21 year old kid attacking her, but I would have some serious explaining to do if I did the same; unless he was stomping me and I had no other option. A communication of some sorts that the aggressor intends to do you serious harm will also help your case. You need to be able to clearly articulate why shooting the BG was the best option.
    BMW, I am a little disappointed in your understanding of this, being a LEO and all. I can finds cases all day long to support both side of the argument. It still boils down to what I said above.

    Now, let’s look at this in the real world. A fist fight takes two. Once you throw a punch you become a participant. Don’t misunderstand, punch if that’s what you need to do to get away, but I'm talking about standing and trading punches. If your fist fight escalates into a shooting, I promise you will be turned into the aggressor.
    Good D/T skills go hand in hand with CCW. Hand to hand does not only mean beating your opponent into submission. It means be able to escape and gain the most valuable thing of all...ground between you.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  6. #80
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Usually I do not post after a thread goes over 2 pages but I will make an exception here.

    Firstly, I have eaten undeserved crow to get out of a situation in the past. It could have escalated to a fisticuff and, being much smaller than the attacker, could have easily turned into a lethal force situation (for which I was prepared). Leave your ego at home when you have your gun. I KNOW I can kill the nut wanting to fight me, I don't care if he knows it or not as long as I go home alive (and not have to go to the police station).

    Secondly, if your only tool is a hammer every problem is a nail. In addition to a gun I will also always have a canister of peppergas. In a non-lethal force level encounter your are entirely justified in using OC on a physical attacker where you would not be justified in using lethal force. It is also something that 30 minutes and some water can cure, unlike a gunshot wound.

  7. #81
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    ive always been under the impression that when carrying a gun, anything you do is with a deadly weapon.

    be it eating, driving, assaulting, etc.

    i've gotten into one altercation while carrying. i (5'10", 230. chubby, but no slouch) just let the guy (5'8"ish, 175ish") hit me a couple of times - i play rough with some big boys, this guy wasnt up to the task and too drunk to place his blows very well - by that time his friends stepped in and pulled him away. i sat back down and finished my dinner - free!!! manager apologized and didnt charge me...

    point is, i never even considered lethal force. when you're scared for your life, you'll know it, and theres no black and white about it, for anyone, in any scenario. the only positive thing will be whether or not you were so scared you pulled steel -blade, gun, whatever.

    the pepper spray thing, i personally wouldnt carry. to me, without enough training with it in conjunction with h2h and firearm control, would only prove a complication, a possible hesitation, where i might not be able to afford it.

  8. #82
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    Im not going to say a whole lot more on this but to give a couple situations I've been in. The first situation I've been in was when I was on duty. I was called to a local high school to assist the SRO in transporting two guys that were involved in a fight. The SRO wanted to transport them seperately. When I got there, they were in the school office, surprisingly un-cuffed. The SRO told me which one I was going to be taking, which was a 200lb + black guy, and because of his size, probobly played football. When I instructed him to stand up and put his hands behind his back, I guess he decided he didn't want to go to jail. He turned around and sucker punched me square in the head. I'll admit I was seeing stars. I proceeded to tackle him to the ground and hit him a couple times. I started to feel a tug at my waist which was this guy trying to pull my gun from its holster. I reached down and pushed this guys hand off. Luckily, the SRO was there to give the guy a face full of mace. But that situation wasn't a good experience. The second sitution was off duty, and I was going to meet some friends for dinner. I just got out of my car in the resturant parking lot and was heading inside. This guy approached me and said, "That's a nice car man, you need to give me the keys." I laughed first, thinking he was joking. But then he started to come at me very quickly. Instead of getting in a fight with the wanna be car thief, I pulled my gun. He decided that stealing my car was a bad idea when he was looking down the barrel of my glock. Just my opinion, Im not trying to argue with anyone.

  9. #83
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    Im not going to say a whole lot more on this but to give a couple situations I've been in. The first situation I've been in was when I was on duty. I was called to a local high school to assist the SRO in transporting two guys that were involved in a fight. The SRO wanted to transport them seperately. When I got there, they were in the school office, surprisingly un-cuffed. The SRO told me which one I was going to be taking, which was a 200lb + black guy, and because of his size, probobly played football. When I instructed him to stand up and put his hands behind his back, I guess he decided he didn't want to go to jail. He turned around and sucker punched me square in the head. I'll admit I was seeing stars. I proceeded to tackle him to the ground and hit him a couple times. I started to feel a tug at my waist which was this guy trying to pull my gun from its holster. I reached down and pushed this guys hand off. Luckily, the SRO was there to give the guy a face full of mace. But that situation wasn't a good experience. The second sitution was off duty, and I was going to meet some friends for dinner. I just got out of my car in the resturant parking lot and was heading inside. This guy approached me and said, "That's a nice car man, you need to give me the keys." I laughed first, thinking he was joking. But then he started to come at me very quickly. Instead of getting in a fight with the wanna be car thief, I pulled my gun. He decided that stealing my car was a bad idea when he was looking down the barrel of my glock. Just my opinion, Im not trying to argue with anyone.
    You can do things like that because you are a police officer. I worked as an LEO and I know that the laws governing the police and civilians are different. As an LEO you are trained and also have a duty to apprehend the suspect, this allows you to "draw" your gun as a preventive measure. Joe Civilian cannot pull their gun on someone unless there is a threat of deadly force.

    Yea I know I said I was not going to say anything else... I guess I lied.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    You can do things like that because you are a police officer. I worked as an LEO and I know that the laws governing the police and civilians are different. As an LEO you are trained and also have a duty to apprehend the suspect, this allows you to "draw" your gun as a preventive measure. Joe Civilian cannot pull their gun on someone unless there is a threat of deadly force.

    Yea I know I said I was not going to say anything else... I guess I lied.
    And there is where argument is. BMW is looking at it from a different view. Maybe a little wet behind the ears too.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #85
    Member Array Gun Loving Liveral's Avatar
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    Polar Bear, thanks for your quick response. I was trying to get the point across that in a situation which may be very close to the line of legality I am going to err on the side of safety. I would always use violence as a last resort (as I always have) and would be aware I would likely have legal consequences if I chose poorly.
    I really miss the running away option. When I was a distance runner I never felt scared of personal danger other than being run over as I knew I could outrun 98% of the world!
    In Oklahoma, even we liberals like guns!

  12. #86
    Member Array cray's Avatar
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    Several people have mentioned concerns at having a weapon taken away from them, and as one said, paraphrasing, any fight you get into will always involve at least one deadly weapon. Many LEOs have been shot with their own weapons and they place hands on bad guys for a living. Yes, their firearms are more exposed, but at the same time, it's highly unlikely that if you get in a tussel, yours will remain hidden. So, you can get training in retention and hand to hand techniques, as did those LEOs, God bless 'em. Bottom line: things rarely go down as predicted.

    My personal position is that you never EVER knowingly allow someone, who means to do you harm (any harm) get within striking distance, period. No "responding with equal force" .. you get out, you use OC, an extendable cane, or whatever you have on your person or can pick up off the street. You are armed, if your weapon is taken, you can be sure that in addition to your own pain, you could be responsible for the pain of others. It is your responsibility to retain your weapon at all costs and you are only ASSURED of doing that if someone can't physically get to it.

    Yeah, I know we can "what if" this to death but much uncertainty can be removed by being alert, using good equipment, having some means of lesser force at your disposal, keeping a cell phone on your person, etc.

    T.

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