Fender Bender+ Drunks

This is a discussion on Fender Bender+ Drunks within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tk4878 No offense meant...maybe I should have stated...From my experience etc... By the time I see an intoxicated male, he has already ...

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Thread: Fender Bender+ Drunks

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk4878 View Post
    No offense meant...maybe I should have stated...From my experience etc... By the time I see an intoxicated male, he has already been involved in an altercation and has been injured. I am just the poor nurse who has to deal with his drunk @$%! You are right, not all men who over indulge are like that. Yes and women act like idiots too when drunk. My apologies....did not mean to offend those who like to get ripped!

    tk

    None taken and none directed by me really ...My point was that If they are like that drunk...they were like that to start with. I think someone after me put it a bit more elloquently.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    i fall into the #2 category thankfully but i have seen plenty of the old "instant a*$hole, just add alcohol" situations.

    ... but congrats. your story is the poster child of why you should carry and a situation that was justified. there's no way that would have turned out O.K.. 1 rational female against 3 drunken apes doesn't stand a chance to stop a confrontation. anyway, I'm sure the T.V. or computer look a lot better to you now on those up coming bad snowy days.
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  4. #18
    Member Array northjdr's Avatar
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    This is not meant to be critical as I believe you did what you needed to do. I just have some thougts..This was certainly a situation where you could not drive off without stopping because you would be guilty of leaving the scene of an accident. (even though they flashed you the "we're number #1" sign). You did well if you didn't respond with a sign achnowledging their # 1 status. If you would have been the one sideswiped you most certainly would have reported the offender if they had driven off. The accident was also probably your fault. As the trailing driver you have a duty of course to drive in accordance with the conditions. Of course we all know this, but accidents still do happen. Could they have possibly missunderstood your intents when you told the to go to the parking lot? It doesn't excuse their aggression but it might explain it. It's a difficult situation to descalate because if you start apologing those statemtns could come back to haunt you in court.
    A lady was driving, and 3 guys all bigger than me and drunk all get out of their car. The lady was being rational as we decided not to call the police at 2am
    I assume that the lady was probably the designated driver. If I had detected drinking on her part I would have felt a duty and responsibility to report it to get a potentially dangerous driver off the road. Would it have been safer of you for you to stay in your car? If it appeared that they were piling out of their car, spoiling for a fight, perhaps you could have stayed in the vehical and moved to put some distance between you an them. Hindsight is perfect I guess. I'll stop rambling now.
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  5. #19
    Member Array albundy's Avatar
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    Drunks and bowling alleys

    I think you did what you had to do. No one was harmed, situation was defused.

  6. #20
    Member Array ms.k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Drinking intensifies your personality, if someone is just a bit of an a-hole sober he becomes a raging a-hole on booze.
    I dunno. One of my ex's was a pretty good guy who never got physical UNLESS he was drinking, but it was never with me, it was usually with someone at a bar or one of his friends, and they usually laughed about it the next day.

  7. #21
    New Member Array BuckMark37's Avatar
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    Well im sorry pal but if you would have pulled your weapon and used it the 12 behind the panel would have sent your butt right to the big house. I dont know what state you live in but im sure most of the laws are the same when it comes to using deadly force. It is your duty to try and retreat from any threat first ,if you cant was your life in danger and it sounds to me it wasnt. Did they have a weapon dont sound like it ,where they drunk maybe, does that give you the right to pull your weapon because you were pushed im sorry but no it does not. You had better know for a fact that your life was in grave danger of being taking or mamed and be able to convience a jury that it was or your family will feel the efects from it.
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckMark37 View Post
    It is your duty to try and retreat from any threat first ...
    Only in states that demand such a duty. Ohio, maybe ... but then, Ohio's still working out its concealed carry and use-of-force laws.

    Most have simple acknowledgment of the realistic and fluid nature of deadly confrontations, recognizing that it's not always possible. A few go so far as to specifically state nobody has any such duty if they are in a place they have every right to be.

    Further, three much-larger males acting in concert as a "pack" at 2am where alcohol is clearly involved constitutes, in nearly any book I know of, disparity of force. In short, any stiff beating in such a situation could immediately become deadly, at which point it's far, far too late to do anything about it. Whatever else the laws do, anywhere in the U.S., they do not completely and utterly disarm a person in such a situation. One need not take a three-on-one beating by a drunken gang of attackers at 2am, alone. That's a recipe for death. That isn't to say a grand jury wouldn't have something to say about it, but it is what it is: an attack with clear disparity of force, alone at 2am, where fear of great bodily harm is present (if felt by the person defending).
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  9. #23
    Member Array samb's Avatar
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    I would never get out of my car after an accident if it was at night. I'd pull in somewhere and call the police. (ALWAYS have a cell phone handy.)

    If the person(s) came up to my car, I'd show them the cell phone. I'd also open the window a crack and tell them the police are on the way.
    This way, I have not given up the protection of my car, plus I can still floor it if a problem develops and get the heck out of there.

    I used to tell my kids that after dark, only predators and the stupid are out in a big city. Sorry if that sounds a bit strong, but in the night, trust NO ONE.

  10. #24
    Member Array FknRa's Avatar
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    I belive that this is a prime example of the quote; "an armed society is a polite society". Personally I would have called the cops. You have no recourse if later on she decides to claim injury against you, or the passengers in her car claim injury "after they sober up".

    One question I have is why are you letting them get within arms reach of you? Especially if they are drunk and your buisness is with the driver of the car, not them. Just a personal thing, I used to bounce in a couple of bars in phoenix and what I learned is that you can NEVER predict what an intoxicated person will do. Everyone has a trigger and they don't all have 'Tells'. As a personal policy we tried to (I know it sounds metro) "maintain our personal bubble". Unless we were tossing someone we asked them to maintain an arms length for our "and Their" safety.

    I am very glad all turned out well, but when we are tired and it's late, and you don't know who you are dealing with, we must be extra vigilant. Part of the responsibility of carrying is maintaining a higher level of aleartness.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by samb View Post
    I would never get out of my car after an accident if it was at night. I'd pull in somewhere and call the police. (ALWAYS have a cell phone handy.)

    If the person(s) came up to my car, I'd show them the cell phone. I'd also open the window a crack and tell them the police are on the way.
    This way, I have not given up the protection of my car, plus I can still floor it if a problem develops and get the heck out of there.
    Who is your cell provider? I have yet to find one that works everywhere. The OP is in Michigan, I have had cell issues there. So what to do, drive away until you get cell service? I've been in a coverage area with full signal and not been able to make a call. Technology is nice when it works, have a plan for when it doesn't.

    The never get out of your car is ok in the context of a fender bender. What about something a bit more serious where your car may not be drivable. The last wreck I had a guy turned left into me. Crunched up my car so good it skidded to a stop and required a tire change and some body bashing to get it drivable again.

    I used to tell my kids that after dark, only predators and the stupid are out in a big city. Sorry if that sounds a bit strong, but in the night, trust NO ONE.
    It sounds more than a bit strong. No LEOs or fire rescue types are out after dark I'm sure.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by samb View Post
    I would never get out of my car after an accident if it was at night. I'd pull in somewhere and call the police. (ALWAYS have a cell phone handy.)

    If the person(s) came up to my car, I'd show them the cell phone. I'd also open the window a crack and tell them the police are on the way.
    This way, I have not given up the protection of my car, plus I can still floor it if a problem develops and get the heck out of there.

    I used to tell my kids that after dark, only predators and the stupid are out in a big city. Sorry if that sounds a bit strong, but in the night, trust NO ONE.
    In some states you are required in case of a serious accident to stop and rendor aid. I would do it regardless of whether they required me to. It's the right thing to do in my opinion. I am sometimes in the downtown area after dark, late at night since I work there. I have never thought of myself as a predator or stupid....
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
    (SNIP) I have never thought of myself as a predator or stupid....
    ...that makes two of us.
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  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuckMark37 View Post
    Well im sorry pal but if you would have pulled your weapon and used it the 12 behind the panel would have sent your butt right to the big house. I dont know what state you live in but im sure most of the laws are the same when it comes to using deadly force. It is your duty to try and retreat from any threat first ,if you cant was your life in danger and it sounds to me it wasnt. Did they have a weapon dont sound like it ,where they drunk maybe, does that give you the right to pull your weapon because you were pushed im sorry but no it does not. You had better know for a fact that your life was in grave danger of being taking or mamed and be able to convience a jury that it was or your family will feel the efects from it.
    You need to review Ohio law then.

    Our duty to retreat is NOT absolute. You are NOT required to retreat if doing so cannot be done in safety. Leaving the scene of an accident is at least a misdeameanor, and possibly a felony if people are injured or killed.

    On top of that, courts all over the country have taken judicial notice that disparity of force is definitely a factor to consider in the decision to use lethal force.

    Three drunk men, larger than you, are most definitely a deadly threat if they start beating on you. In fact, they do not even need to start the beating. Being within arms reach of you or pursuing you, being larger/stronger than you, and their announced intention to kick your ass all meet the reasonable man standard of means, opportunity, and intent.

    The OP did not fire. And if he had fired after physically being assaulted he would have been GTG.

    I would have acted the same way, right here in Ohio.

  15. #29
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    Sounds like the OP did o.k. trying to retreat(if given the opportunity )would be good too. even with the legal requirements filled, shooting someone can really go bad for ya. I consider drawing as a last option , if no other choice is available.
    Finally, I would suggest not giving legal advice to others, even if you are a lawyer.
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    If the legalities of shooting someone cannot be discussed here, what is the point of this forum?

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