Scenario: Man armed with a rifle shooting people in public...

This is a discussion on Scenario: Man armed with a rifle shooting people in public... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So some of us, myself included, have said we carry a rifle or shotgun in our vehicles. Could be a hunting rifle, an EBR (Evil ...

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Thread: Scenario: Man armed with a rifle shooting people in public...

  1. #1
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    Scenario: Man armed with a rifle shooting people in public...

    So some of us, myself included, have said we carry a rifle or shotgun in our vehicles. Could be a hunting rifle, an EBR (Evil Black Rifle), duck gun, whatever.

    So we had the BG shooting in the public square engaged with a pistol. Alternatively we had the bank robbers in LA. Each of these cases had BGs with long arms and LE (Law Enforcement) responding with handguns. Also body armor on the BGs.

    So you are next to your vehicle where you have a lawfully transported/possessed long arm and ammunition for it. You are 50yds from the BG. LE is on scene, but outgunned as it were taking on a rifle toting armored BG with their handguns. You have a good backstop (bank wall or other building wall behind the BG). There is at least one LEO near enough to you that you could talk to them.

    Would you:

    let the LEO know and then engage the BG with your long arm?
    provide a LEO with your long arm to engage the BG?
    forget the long arm and have a go with your CCW pistol?
    get down and be a good witness, and not offer up your long arm or your pistol?
    Other options not listed?

    -Scott-

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  3. #2
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    Most Le around here have long arms , mostly rifles in the cars already, so I guess it wouldn't much matter around here. I am no longer LE so unless the officers are in immediate danger of injury, death I would not step in.

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    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    I would definately let the LE know what I was doing before I pulled a waepon of any kind. I would probably offer them the choice of the gun or ,my use of the gun. The only way you lose is if they tell you to stay out of it. Of course the media would have a field day with those LEOs when they find out they had the firepower available to stop the BG but just stood by and did nothing while he killed his victims.

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    Member Array Deke45's Avatar
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    I believe I would quickly inform the LEO who I was, and that I have a rifle within reach & offer up the gun...for liability reasons if nothing else. If he refused and people are dying, I'd take the responsibility and take this #@% down! I would however probably comply with a direct command from the LEO to not engage the BG.

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    I would identify myself to LEO's and advise them of what I had and that I have the equipment, experience and training to resolve the situation. Then allow them to make the decision. They are in control (or not..) of the scene and it's their call to make.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

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    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    If you remember, with the texas A&M shooting, people went home and got hunting rifles...then again, that's texas

    If i was stuck there with the cop, i'd tell him that i had a rifle in the car and would gladly end the situation if asked to. I would not offer him the rifle. I'm not relying on his training with MY gun to save MY ass. Chances are, if he doesn't have a rifle in his cruiser, he's never been trained with a rifle. If he doesn't want me ending the situation, best of luck to him. Frankly, i can't imagine a cop being to concerned with liability at that point. If he was, i would suggest that he be looking the other way.

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    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    At 50m, I have a FAL with scope in the trunk. I have enough ammo to wage war with Bolivia. I drive an old model Caprice, otherwise known as "hard cover."

    I'm probably not going to notify the policeman - I don't want to distract him or get shot out of reflex, but I don't want to get pegged as the bad guy either. In this case, discretion is the better part of valor, and I'll disclose if needed but not unless he looks my way first.

    The policeman is NOT getting my firearm in this instance. It's mine, I brought it, and I'm going to be the one who uses it. He has no obligation to protect me under the law, and I have the right to stop a felony in progress with lethal force under ID state law.

    At 50m with the 308, it's not even sporting, though. I hunker down behind the trunk or engine block, whichever gives me a line of fire, aim, and fire. Repeat as needed.
    Even on the worst day and I can't get a head shot, COM will take the guy down even with the best body armor money can buy with ballistic inserts after a couple shots.

  9. #8
    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfurtkamp
    I drive an old model Caprice, otherwise known as "hard cover."
    Do NOT count on that. .223, 7.62x39, 308, and pretty much any rifle cartridge will turn your car, and you behind it into swiss cheese. If a car is all you have, make sure it's sideways to the target and you're behind the front axle. I carr is decent concealment, but lousy cover.

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    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clubsoda22
    Do NOT count on that. .223, 7.62x39, 308, and pretty much any rifle cartridge will turn your car, and you behind it into swiss cheese. If a car is all you have, make sure it's sideways to the target and you're behind the front axle. I carr is decent concealment, but lousy cover.
    Some of the new ones, yes. I don't drive one of the plastic/smallbody specials.

    I have a 350 V8 in the car. I've seen what anything short of a .50 doesn't pass through similar old-school GM front ends most of the time.

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    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    every other cop in north hollywood was driving the same thing, what good it did them. Many officers were hit by bullets passing through their cars. I drive a 96 crown vic. It's essentially the same bigass piece of steel you got, and i wouldn't use it for cover any longer than it took me to get to REAL cover.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clubsoda22
    every other cop in north hollywood was driving the same thing, what good it did them. Many officers were hit by bullets passing through their cars.
    They were driving the new Caprices with the lighter, smaller frames and bodies and some of the Crown Vics. Totally different than the original boxy 70s cars.

    I drive a 96 crown vic. It's essentially the same bigass piece of steel you got, and i wouldn't use it for cover any longer than it took me to get to REAL cover.
    A 96 Crown Vic is tiny compared to the full-sized early 80s Caprice.

    I've disassembled the rear end - the axles are far smaller and far less solid than the engine block and frame on the thing.

    I've also shot repeatedly at a Delta 88 of the same vintage (same frame size, slightly smaller engine) and a 70s Caprice with the straigh six at 'destroy this car' days - through the doors with 308 and 7.62x39, yes. No on .223, typically no on .45. Engine block stopped everything including a .454. I'm sure it was shattered, but the thing ate thousands of rounds from handguns and hundreds from rifles. Some went through - but the block was intact in both cases at the end of the day as something resembling an engine block with no passthough.

  13. #12
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    not trying to drag this off topic, but I used to drive a 1991 Crown Vic I bought from the KSP. It had the vinyl top put on it and was painted a different blue by the KSP when I got it. I dont know what they used it for, but there was at least one bullet hole in it, below the drivers door, which they had covered up with a piece of stainless trim. Both doors and the front fender had been replaced as well at some point in time.

    I always wished I knew the story behind that. At any rate it was one sweet car until I t-boned a honda with it. I could have probably fixed it on the cheap and kept driving it but I just bought another car.

    If there was some real nice hard cover I could get behind, you bet I would do it. If not, I would definately plant myself behind the front wheel of one of these cars. With the huge fuel injection intake, and the crossmember under the center of the engine being so low to the ground, not to mention the suspension etc etc. The only really vulnerable place would be if they could place a bullet through both tires at the bottom of the rims. It would be a lucky shot on the part of the bad guy to hit you even then if you have properly placed yourself it wouldn't be to a major organ.

    Is there better cover? Absolutely! If you have one of these older V8 rwd beheamouths they could save your life if in a pinch though.
    Hmmm maybe this would be a good topic to start over on a crown vic message board I am a member of...

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    I would notify the LEO of what I had and give them the chance to make the choice. Some of the LEOs I know would immediately tell me to give them the rifle, and they are very competent with rifles. Others might start to think about it, which at that point, I would have to take the shot to end the threat. However, I would prefer that the LEO take the shot.

    I was definitely thinking of the court house incident, where there would be several LEOs in the area away from their cruisers with only their handguns available, even if they carried rifles in their cruisers.

    -Scott-

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    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    My concern, beyond my own safety, is confusing the LEO with options.

    Few here have handled a FAL and it's not a situation to be providing on-the-spot lessons.

  16. #15
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    Id tell them I have my AR in the truck and Im going to go get it for them.

    I would let them shoot, as they would rather do it anyway, they get the vacation, all it would get me is 6 months of interviews and phone calls.

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