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Do women have an advantage?

5K views 63 replies 26 participants last post by  limatunes 
#1 · (Edited)
I was reading through some of these scenarios and a question came to mind.

Now, most of the scenarios listed are non-gender specific, but what of the woman, does she have an advantage in that a number of criminals (which, let's face it, are mostly men) underestimate a woman's capacity to pull a gun and shoot them?

Not long ago, while at the range and getting ready to leave, both my husband and I holstered our carry guns while finished cleaning up and the guy beside me who had recently arrived said, "Oh, you shouldn't do that, little lady, you're liable to shoot yourself." Yet he said nothing to my husband.. :blink: hmmmmm.

I see a sexist attitude quite a bit in the gun world (not here, but at ranges and gun shows and the like), and while it annoys me at times :)rant:) , I enjoy demonstrating that I am neither a novice nor reluctant when it comes to guns. :uzi:

It's not hard to assume, then, that criminals could see us in the same harmless, non-threatening light. It's likely to imagine, getting into a situation where, if with my husband, a BG would pay closer attention to him than he would to me, or an attacker might not pay as close attention to where I put my hands while he's charging me.

Now, granted, I won't get cocky enough to think I have a significant advantage or that I'm superior in anyway, but any small advantage could and should be played to it's fullest.

Do you think women have a slighter advantage in that they are at times underestimated?
 
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#3 ·
My wife applied for her CCL in Feb. and should be getting it soon.

I told her when we are together and both are carrying here's what we should do.

I'll step in front of her to shield her incase the BG wishes to harm us. The BG will be looking at me as the threat. In the mean time, now that she is out of full view of the BG she can take her gun out of her fanny pack and step around me to shoot the BG.

All I asked of her is to not shoot next to my head.

I think it is a good idea for women to carry. To the BG they look like an easy target and a gun is a great equalizer.
 
#9 ·
Yes.
We may be seen as less of a threat, or as Pete pointed out, more of a target because we are seen as "easy" either to control, harm, intimidate, whatever.

That may not make it necessarily so (obviously) :wink: but it's something to consider.

Another thing that made me think of this was yesterday at the mall.

My husband and I were in the food court. He was getting some food for us while I was on the other side of the court getting one of my favorite smoothies. For all intensive purposes, I looked like I was there by myself. While waiting for my smoothie to be made I noticed two guys, just standing around in a heavy traffic area and particularly "noticing" women who seemed to be alone. They took a long hard look at me, talked a bit amongst themselves, then an Asian girl in a black suite crossed between us and they studied her as she walked, talked amongst themselves some more and then promptly took after her (or at least in the same direction).

Now, I have no idea what their intent was, nor am I assuming that they were out to rape or attack or anything. For all intensive purposes they were probably two guys just having fun day-dreaming about girls in a mall. But there was always that "what if." What if they were out to stalk a girl that day, they certainly payed far closer attention to girls who seemed to be alone than anything else. They could easily assume that with their combined strength (the fact that there were two of them) they could subdue a girl. Even if they were just muggers, they might even assume that going after a girl may be easier than going after a guy, and, in my case, had they tried anything, they would probably not have expected getting a gun pulled on them.

Like Pete mentioned, they may target women because they seem like easier target, but that would also lead them to miscalculate what they can't see.

(P.S. Good to see another gal around :smile:)
 
#6 · (Edited)
Good point, limatunes...after I got my carry permit and became "CCW aware", I found myself scanning guys who are wearing Hawaiian shirts or other known cover garments for the tell-tale signs of a concealed gun...I don't recall ever looking at a woman and thinking she may have a concealed weapon.

It is a subconscious bias on my part, and I would imagine most bad guys would be shocked to find out that the woman he had picked as a potential victim was armed. That could definitely give her at the very least a small advantage of surprise...:hand10:
 
#7 ·
Depends on the women the interacting male is accustomed to. :wink: Any pimp-daddy will be fairly wary, if you give off the "awareness vibe". Folks dealing with prostitutes and female gang-bangers are well aware of their abilities and mindset. For the average mugger/rapist/robber, with a history of control by intimidation, your odds will be better.
 
#8 ·
limatunes said:
Do you think women have a slighter advantage in that they are at times underestimated?
Probably. The continuing existence of that sort of "little lady" sexist attitude in this day and age is pretty foolish (and good for a laugh).

The real advantage that women have, I think, is in the aftermath. Because of the continuing existence of that sort of sexism, the odds of a woman being involved in a legitimate shooting, and yet still coming out on the short end afterwards in court, are EXTREMELY small. Not so small for a man, however.
 
#10 ·
Interesting thread. I think that could be an advantage in some situations, but certainly not all. Imagining myself in reverse situations working as an LEO or other protective roles with clients, I am more prone to pay attention to males in the room as potential threats.

If a woman is smart enough to play up this fact of life, it really can be a big advantage. The tough part is dealing with all the disadvantages a woman has. I would think its much tougher to conceal and stay fashionable. However, every woman that I have trained and trained with that really wanted to learn become far more skilled than most of the guys. The problem is that most women's minds just are not wired that way.
The guys in the mall you mentioned makes me think of other disadvantage... lets say they are just girl watching. They are studying you, making it more likely they will notice a CCW on you. Nobody gives a 250# balding guy a second look, he can probably open carry and not many would notice... but a pretty girl walks though a crowd, most guys are looking, and women do too.
Now lets say they do have preditory intentions... if they noticed a CCW, would it be an advantage or disadvantage?

I guess my point is that a woman can to play up certain misconceptions and stereo types to her advantage, as long as they understand the disadvantages that go along with it too.
 
#13 ·
I guess my point is that a woman can to play up certain misconceptions and stereo types to her advantage, as long as they understand the disadvantages that go along with it too.
Oh certainly, that is why there is nothing better than being well trained and prepared.

My husband, a former Marine, has taken a lot of time and effort to teach me some basic hand-to-hand things, but warns me all the time that if a BG gets within arms range of me (2 feet or less) I'm probably done for. At first I thought it was a little grim of him to say so until he demonstrated his point. He stood about two feet from me and said, "I'm going to go really slow, and keep in mind I'm not trying to hurt you, but I'm going to grab you and I'm going to ease you to the ground and I want you to try everything that you know, don't worry about hurting me, to try to stop me or fight me off."

He kept his word, he moved slow and I fought like CRAZY and he still had me subdued in a matter of seconds.

Then he said, "Remember, I was going slow and not trying to hurt you. I was just holding you and easing you to the ground, I wasn't hitting you, punching you, kicking you or doing anything that someone who cares less about you may try if they are out to get something you don't want to give.

"I'm sorry honey, but if you let someone get this close to you, you are done. That's why it's so important to NOT let them get this close."

It was a humbling exercize and one that has taught me most about my perimeter.

I don't look for people who are carrying, I look for people and how they are interacting with their environment. I try, always, to keep a high level of suspicious alertness. I may over read people but I'd rather over read than under read.

Yesterday, at the mall, when I got a bad "vibe" from the two guys, I stepped away from them, ensuring my back was not to them, switched my purse from my right hand (my gun hand) to my left hand. I put my right hand closer to my gun. I was pretty darned well dressed for carry yesterday and carrying the Mustang so I very much doubt that they noticed anything, but I wasn't going to give them the chance to get close enough for a second look.

No, I wouldn't have drawn on them without just cause, but any move they made closer to my general direction, made me take a few more steps away.

My perimeter is important to me. I certainly am not going to think any small advantage I may have is equal to or greater than the disadvantages I have.
 
#12 ·
In addition to the element of surprise a woman has an extra advantage.
Women are better shots generally.
I'm not saying that any given woman in any given stress scenario is better than every man, but all things equal the experienced women that I watch shoot have excellent shot placement.

Imagine the scenario:

Give me your money.
Back off, I have a gun and I will defend myself.
Ha, little lady has a Kel-Tec, you know how to use that thing?
Last warning, put down the knife and back off, I do not want to shoot you, STOP.

Two bangs.

Coroner's report; two shots to the heart proving fatal.
 
#14 ·
My perimeter is important to me.
That lima is what we all should make sure of ........ possibly THE biggest factor with awareness.

Your main thrust in the thread ....... a sorta ''two way deal'' is one I think is spot on. It is probably true to say that on balance ladies are a more tempting victim prospect for BG's - whether it be robbery, rape - whatever. But if however a lady is at least seen to be alert then I'll bet that takes some temptation out of the equation.

The other side of the coin tho, I certainly agree with is, that a gun carrying lady with some training and abilities could well be a MUCH greater potential threat to a BG - simply because it may be so unexpected.

I can well imagine a situation where husband and wife get accosted and BG or BG's concentrate initially on the guy - during which phase the armed wife could well have a great tactical advantage.

Of course as ever circumstances alter events but for sure, I consider an armed lady a very useful potential defender - not to be under-rated at all :smilez: I just wish more ladies would carry, altho I do think the percentages have improved in recent years.
 
#15 ·
Lima, a little off topic, but get your husband to show you how to redirect/deflect energy in H2H. He will know what I am talking about.
The smallest of people can do this with great effect, and it will buy you more time to draw and escape if a BG does get within arms reach.
 
#19 ·
When going thru the academy years ago I got killed (combat exercise) because I did not pay enough attention to the female perp.
Several of the guys did. Interestingly enough a couple of the women trainees did as well. Women do have an advantage if they'll use it.
 
#20 ·
lima - in addition to the deflect from the line of attack, learn some pain/incapacitation points. If a large man is pushing you to the ground, and you try to get away, you most likely lose. If he is pulling you close and you close and get close to him whilst putting both thumbs in each eye, he is going to re-evaluate his attack. It does not take much strength to scoop out the jelly of the eyeball or punch the throat or others.

Again, if you protect your perimeter, you may never need those skills.
 
#22 ·
LOL... Eye gouges and pressure points. Boy have I gotten the lesson on those.

It is a fact of nature that any creature will protect it's eyes above all else.
Birds of prey, to ensure their meal is dead, will peck at the eyes, because even creatures that are playing dead to attract prey of their own will flinch or try to protect themselves if poked in the eye.
In the military, they teach that if you suspect someone is faining death, poke him in the eye with the muzzle of your rifle.

The eyes are a perfect target in ruthless hand-to-hand. All bets are off when a thumb is in your eye, for sure. Other than that there are plenty of points on the neck, shoulder, hands, and so on that are great pressure points.

:biggrin2:
 
#21 ·
Yes , from a perception point of view. My girlfriend is about 115 lb, skinny and looks like an easy target. We occasionally play around wrestling ect, and she always suprises me with how much strength she has. (farm girl) .
As said women may be targeted more, too. I am glad to see more women are arming themselves and taking self defense seriously. Everyone should know how to protect themselves.
 
#23 · (Edited)
That is all good, but grappling and pressure points are only used as last resort BG is all over you options. You must remain in contact with the BG for them to be effective. You really don't want to go hands on with a BG who is likely stronger and more experienced in fighting than yourself. If you are already ground fighting... all bets are off, do what you got to do. Nose, eyes and ears are all great targets, esp. if you carry a knife. The old standby "grab twist and pull" is effective too. You do not want to go to the ground with a more powerful BG! Avoid that at all costs.
That is why I suggested the redirect/deflect techniques. They take no power, no energy and it will buy you enough time to gain some distance and draw and shoot. The smallest of people can be effective against the largest of people.

To many women’s self defense classes are based on apprehension techniques instead of "hit and run". Pressure points only work when you have a hold on the BG... You don’t want to have a hold; you want to be out of his reach.
The biggest piece of advice I can give on a message board is to build your hand strength, if you have a good strong grip you can win just about any encounter. If you want it, I’ll PM you a way to do that fast and cheap. I can go on and on about this stuff, but I wont for now.
 
#30 ·
That is all good, but grappling and pressure points are only used as last resort BG is all over you options. You must remain in contact with the BG for them to be effective. You really don't want to go hands on with a BG who is likely stronger and more experienced in fighting than yourself. If you are already ground fighting... all bets are off, do what you got to do. Nose, eyes and ears are all great targets, esp. if you carry a knife. The old standby "grab twist and pull" is effective too. You do not want to go to the ground with a more powerful BG! Avoid that at all costs.
That is why I suggested the redirect/deflect techniques. They take no power, no energy and it will buy you enough time to gain some distance and draw and shoot. The smallest of people can be effective against the largest of people.
I was not advocating going hand on hand. It was in response to her significant other taking her down. If she is in contact and cannot escape (deflect did not work), then I wanted her to be aware of her options.

I agree that deflect/create distance is good, but if she has no other choice, then go for the soft spots.
 
#24 ·
You really don't want to go hands on with a BG who is likely stronger and more experienced in fighting than yourself. If you are already ground fighting... all bets are off, do what you got to do.
I can attest to that. The ground, bed, floor,or in my case, on the seat of the car, is the toughest place to get out of, and when you have someone hitting you in the face, forget about it!
 
#26 ·
All i have to say on the subject is that in another life a sharp looking, scantily clad little latina with big brown eyes and a smile that lit the room would have gutted me with a broken beer bottle in a local cantina had it not been for the vest . My situational awareness was lacking and i had dismissed her as a threat while attempting to resolve a conflict i was called to . A mistake i wont make again .
 
#27 ·
"Not long ago, while at the range and getting ready to leave, both my husband and I holstered our carry guns while finished cleaning up and the guy beside me who had recently arrived said, "Oh, you shouldn't do that, little lady, you're liable to shoot yourself." Yet he said nothing to my husband.. "

First thing I would have done is said to him, "well little man don't you worry about it because she can probably out shoot an idiot like you". Most women can as I find their accuracy tends to be very good. Sorry but dumb statments like this tend to burn me up.


Now as to your question I think it is a double edged sword. Yes, I think a woman would be considered less likely to pull iron and start shooting, but I also think it makes them more of a target. All the more reason more women should learn how to shoot and carry a gun if you ask me.
 
#28 ·
With everything that I have posted on this topic so far, a small woman can be very effective... they just need to exploit their strengths, and at least know their weakness, same as a man does.

I know a very tough woman who is a SWAT officer. She is about 115# soaking wet and wicked with a pistol. I would not want to go H2H with her. I have in training before, I am not ashamed to admit she was all over me, and ate my lunch when she was done. I am 5'11 and 195, and have been trained in such things by very well known military schools, and same in the LEO arena. I teach some of them too. My point is, size and strength is only part of the puzzle, knowledge and a survival mindset is most important.
Because of her mindset and knowledge, I would take her to any call with me, anyday. I would love to have her teach a class just for the ladies, but she is to shy. No one ever takes her serious, because she is so small and pretty to boot. Then they go to the rock pile...
 
#29 ·
LOL six its just amazing how the " mats " square away a bunch of folks's attitudes when it comes to small and cute isnt it . My wife is that way small , cute , and not only out shoot you , but hold you down and cut off crap you dont want to loose . She consistantly was the best shot on the dept after i left lol .
 
#32 ·
SIXTO - Agreed wholeheartedly about the mindset. Most times the battle is won/lost before the physical engagement begins.

I'm involved in MA and train w/ LEO. I've trained corrections officers in H2H. It is amazing what a "petite and pretty female" can do once she gets some confidence and then adjusts her mental attitude.

I've been knocked down, bloodied and bent over by some of the "petite and pretty female" COs that I have had the pleasure to train. Once they experience success in H2H, their mindset definitely follows.

My main teacher gives them the techniques. I am the big 275 lb hairy biker hippie that they confront and eventually bring me to my knees.
I take it as my job to help them not only overcome me physically, but to overcome their fear and trepidation.

Edited to add - man, woman, big, small, whatever, it is your mental attitude first, your techniques second. Your body follows what your mind tells it to do.
 
#34 ·
OK, I know that I probably will get banged up for this, but let 'er rip fellas. This is real life, not some politically sensitive talk show.

For all intents and purposes, women ARE smaller, less physically powerful and less of a threat to BG's out for no good. (disclaimer: I have three daughters... my wife is tougher than me, in that any man who delivered ONE baby via his private members WOULD QUIT AFTER ONE KID and mothers are tougher when someone messes with Momma's Cub... I don't want to be there)

But, women, on average are not as formidable as men. Of course, you have your N'th degree martial expert in women (and men) and you have your psycho women (and men) but the AVERAGE man on the street is going to be physically more powerful than a woman.

(throw your tomato's now, but I firmly believe this. THAT is a huge reason why women didn't fight in combat. You buddy gets captured and you try hard to rescue him, but to the average American red-blooded soldier, who values life and was taught respect from birth, you capture his fellow soldier who happens to be a woman, and he thinks that she is being tortured, raped or beaten, AND THAT BOY IS GOING TO GIVE HIS LIFE AND LAST DYING BREATH TO SAVE HER)

I have a wife and three college age daughters. They are tough women, lady-like, but tough enough to stick together no matter what. I would doubt that any of them would run from trouble. My wife has no known fears (or none that she has shown me in our 29 years together)

Point is: Whoever said that thinking of women as "little ladies" is outdated in 2007 is (in my opinion) wrong. Women are women and I feel that they should be treated as such.

Sorry to disagree with your "modern age" beliefs, but THERE IS A DIFFERENCE between men and women. I believe that men and women are wired differently and created like that for a purpose.


(my 2-cents) Let the attacks begin. I expected to get banged up for this, but it is true and comes from my heart.
 
#35 ·
Joel, I dont disagree with you at all. I don't really think anyone here does. Thats what this thread is about, or at least thats what I got from it.
Women are different than men. Women need to understand their weaknesses and exploit their strengths. This is true for everyone.
Women need to learn to take care of themselves. There is not always a man around to do so, besides more and more of the guys I run across qualify as men only in the anatomical sense.
 
#37 ·
BINGO! That is exactly what this is about. No, I don't think anyone here was saying that women were the same as men... I certainly wasn't of that persuasion.

We (men and women) are fundamentally different and for a darned good reason. :biggrin2:
 
#36 ·
Hi Joel,

First off, welcome aboard!!! I agree with you here - I love and respect a lot of women, and personally despise that "little woman" knuckle dragger crap. However, that does not make them any bigger or stronger, and we are talking life and death reality here.

For the record, I used to practice and teach a martial art. I have been on the mat with a small statured woman who was maybe 5'4" tall, and about 115lbs of solid muscle. She kicked me hard enough that the impact of her foot with my cup echoed off the walls, only to be drowned out by the sounds of my puking my guts out. (In my defense, I was only a 19 yr old white belt at the time, but I was 6'2" and 225lbs) She easily dropped me like a bad habit, and with very little effort. Later, a little guy who was about the same size, who wore bow ties and suspenders (and looked like he lived in his mother's basement) climbed up one side of me and down the other, kicking, punching, chopping and elbowing me every step of the way. Ouch!

I have learned that a small statured person who is properly trained is a very formidable opponent - on the mat. The street is sometimes an entirely different story. Please allow me to explain: Actual human predators do not just walk up to you, bow at the waist and proceed to drop into a "cat stance", ready for a fight. They watch, stalk and often attack in pairs or in teams. They will most likely "blitz attack" from behind, and the fight will likely begin with your skull being smashed open on a corner post of your car, a lamp post or concrete wall. Under those conditions, a small statured person - male or female, faces a significant disadvantage when being attacked by a person or persons who outweight them 2 to 1. In Paxton Quigly's book, "Armed & Female" there is a story about a young woman who spent three nights a week in the gym, and another three nights a week in a dojo (martial arts school) IIRC, and was very, very fit, and very well trained in h2h. Her attacker (and rapist) dressed as a woman, laying on the ground covered with fake blood. She(he) cried for help, claiming to have been raped. When the young lady in question approched and attempted to render aid, the BG nailed her square in the face with a single punch that took her out of the fight instantly. It was all over from there.

Situational awareness is HUGELY important. However, unless a woman wants to spend 10 or so years studying a martial art, she is clearly at a significant disadvantage going h2h with a guy. That is a simple fact. And EVEN WITH such training, it is a very dicey proposition at best.

A woman may well have a tactical advantage as far as a BG not taking her seriously, and that may buy a little bit of very critical reaction time. However, without a handgun (and a bunch of training with it) she's most likely not going to fare well against a predatory male. That's the sad fact, and it is a SERIOUS dis-service to give women a false sense of security by telling them anything different. All of that "stick 'em in the eye with a rat-tailed comb" crap goes out the window real fast in a real attack.
 
#38 ·
...
A woman may well have a tactical advantage as far as a BG not taking her seriously, and that may buy a little bit of very critical reaction time. However, without a handgun (and a bunch of training with it) she's most likely not going to fare well against a predatory male. That's the sad fact, and it is a SERIOUS dis-service to give women a false sense of security by telling them anything different. All of that "stick 'em in the eye with a rat-tailed comb" crap goes out the window real fast in a real attack.
Gary - I liked your post. I will, however, disagree about a SERIOUS dis-service about false sense of security. I know when I train women, I do NOT give them a warm fuzzy if they cannot stop/harm me. If I overcome them (in training), I will whisper something in their ear (while holding them captive) about how they are now mine and at my whim, (and whatever else I can motivate them to get into a warrior mindset). I never give someone a false sense of security during training. I have found it, in my experience, to be more difficult to "train" a female on warrior mindset, but once she gets it and embraces it, she is way ahead of her contemporary males.

In my experience training and being trained, the major hurdle for the females is the mental attitude. Once they "get" the warrior mentality, they are on fire and willing to train and learn. Males, on the other hand, have that mentality, but think that the mentality is all they need and forego the training/instruction and try to overcome on brute force.

Whether male or female, brute force does not matter much if someone outweighs you by 30 lbs or more. But mindest does.
 
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