Do women have an advantage?
This is a discussion on Do women have an advantage? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was reading through some of these scenarios and a question came to mind.
Now, most of the scenarios listed are non-gender specific, but what ...
March 12th, 2007 10:02 AM
Do women have an advantage?
I was reading through some of these scenarios and a question came to mind.
Now, most of the scenarios listed are non-gender specific, but what of the woman, does she have an advantage in that a number of criminals (which, let's face it, are mostly men) underestimate a woman's capacity to pull a gun and shoot them?
Not long ago, while at the range and getting ready to leave, both my husband and I holstered our carry guns while finished cleaning up and the guy beside me who had recently arrived said, "Oh, you shouldn't do that, little lady, you're liable to shoot yourself." Yet he said nothing to my husband.. hmmmmm.
I see a sexist attitude quite a bit in the gun world (not here, but at ranges and gun shows and the like), and while it annoys me at times () , I enjoy demonstrating that I am neither a novice nor reluctant when it comes to guns.
It's not hard to assume, then, that criminals could see us in the same harmless, non-threatening light. It's likely to imagine, getting into a situation where, if with my husband, a BG would pay closer attention to him than he would to me, or an attacker might not pay as close attention to where I put my hands while he's charging me.
Now, granted, I won't get cocky enough to think I have a significant advantage or that I'm superior in anyway, but any small advantage could and should be played to it's fullest.
Do you think women have a slighter advantage in that they are at times underestimated?
Last edited by limatunes; March 12th, 2007 at 10:23 AM.
March 12th, 2007 10:02 AM
March 12th, 2007 10:13 AM
I'm not sure. It may well be that a woman does have an advantage due to this perception. However, I'm not sure if that is an advantage, in that the same perception might make the woman more likely to be targetted.
Sprinfield XD 4" .45 Compact
March 12th, 2007 10:16 AM
My wife applied for her CCL in Feb. and should be getting it soon.
I told her when we are together and both are carrying here's what we should do.
I'll step in front of her to shield her incase the BG wishes to harm us. The BG will be looking at me as the threat. In the mean time, now that she is out of full view of the BG she can take her gun out of her fanny pack and step around me to shoot the BG.
All I asked of her is to not shoot next to my head.
I think it is a good idea for women to carry. To the BG they look like an easy target and a gun is a great equalizer.
Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway.
March 12th, 2007 10:19 AM
I think this question will most likely be misinterpreted, but are you asking if women would be seen as less of a threat b/c we are women?
March 12th, 2007 10:25 AM
Interesting thought, and certainly very true.
Originally Posted by PeteTschantz
March 12th, 2007 10:26 AM
Good point, limatunes...after I got my carry permit and became "CCW aware", I found myself scanning guys who are wearing Hawaiian shirts or other known cover garments for the tell-tale signs of a concealed gun...I don't recall ever looking at a woman and thinking she may have a concealed weapon.
It is a subconscious bias on my part, and I would imagine most bad guys would be shocked to find out that the woman he had picked as a potential victim was armed. That could definitely give her at the very least a small advantage of surprise...
Last edited by Team American; March 12th, 2007 at 10:50 AM.
"I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York
"They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper
March 12th, 2007 10:31 AM
Depends on the women the interacting male is accustomed to. Any pimp-daddy will be fairly wary, if you give off the "awareness vibe". Folks dealing with prostitutes and female gang-bangers are well aware of their abilities and mindset. For the average mugger/rapist/robber, with a history of control by intimidation, your odds will be better.
March 12th, 2007 10:47 AM
Probably. The continuing existence of that sort of "little lady" sexist attitude in this day and age is pretty foolish (and good for a laugh).
Originally Posted by limatunes
The real advantage that women have, I think, is in the aftermath. Because of the continuing existence of that sort of sexism, the odds of a woman being involved in a legitimate shooting, and yet still coming out on the short end afterwards in court, are EXTREMELY small. Not so small for a man, however.
March 12th, 2007 10:50 AM
Originally Posted by ms.k
We may be seen as less of a threat, or as Pete pointed out, more of a target because we are seen as "easy" either to control, harm, intimidate, whatever.
That may not make it necessarily so (obviously) but it's something to consider.
Another thing that made me think of this was yesterday at the mall.
My husband and I were in the food court. He was getting some food for us while I was on the other side of the court getting one of my favorite smoothies. For all intensive purposes, I looked like I was there by myself. While waiting for my smoothie to be made I noticed two guys, just standing around in a heavy traffic area and particularly "noticing" women who seemed to be alone. They took a long hard look at me, talked a bit amongst themselves, then an Asian girl in a black suite crossed between us and they studied her as she walked, talked amongst themselves some more and then promptly took after her (or at least in the same direction).
Now, I have no idea what their intent was, nor am I assuming that they were out to rape or attack or anything. For all intensive purposes they were probably two guys just having fun day-dreaming about girls in a mall. But there was always that "what if." What if they were out to stalk a girl that day, they certainly payed far closer attention to girls who seemed to be alone than anything else. They could easily assume that with their combined strength (the fact that there were two of them) they could subdue a girl. Even if they were just muggers, they might even assume that going after a girl may be easier than going after a guy, and, in my case, had they tried anything, they would probably not have expected getting a gun pulled on them.
Like Pete mentioned, they may target women because they seem like easier target, but that would also lead them to miscalculate what they can't see.
(P.S. Good to see another gal around )
March 12th, 2007 11:18 AM
Interesting thread. I think that could be an advantage in some situations, but certainly not all. Imagining myself in reverse situations working as an LEO or other protective roles with clients, I am more prone to pay attention to males in the room as potential threats.
If a woman is smart enough to play up this fact of life, it really can be a big advantage. The tough part is dealing with all the disadvantages a woman has. I would think its much tougher to conceal and stay fashionable. However, every woman that I have trained and trained with that really wanted to learn become far more skilled than most of the guys. The problem is that most women's minds just are not wired that way.
The guys in the mall you mentioned makes me think of other disadvantage... lets say they are just girl watching. They are studying you, making it more likely they will notice a CCW on you. Nobody gives a 250# balding guy a second look, he can probably open carry and not many would notice... but a pretty girl walks though a crowd, most guys are looking, and women do too.
Now lets say they do have preditory intentions... if they noticed a CCW, would it be an advantage or disadvantage?
I guess my point is that a woman can to play up certain misconceptions and stereo types to her advantage, as long as they understand the disadvantages that go along with it too.
"Just blame Sixto"
M&P Doc- Just ask.
March 12th, 2007 11:28 AM
GOTcha now. I could definitely see it in robbery situations,like a bank heist. The bg's usually tie up the bigger threat(which is(are)most times men) and just watch the women and children.
Originally Posted by limatunes
Guess it would be shock for them to turn around and see a woman pointing a gun at them telling them to get on the ground;) hehee!
In all honesty, I really don't walk around trying to figure out who's carrying. Rarely crosses my mind.
As for the staring. That's pretty common, yet somewhat annoying. After what happened to me, I don't particularly like ANY male staring at me for too long!
March 12th, 2007 11:35 AM
In addition to the element of surprise a woman has an extra advantage.
Women are better shots generally.
I'm not saying that any given woman in any given stress scenario is better than every man, but all things equal the experienced women that I watch shoot have excellent shot placement.
Imagine the scenario:
Give me your money.
Back off, I have a gun and I will defend myself.
Ha, little lady has a Kel-Tec, you know how to use that thing?
Last warning, put down the knife and back off, I do not want to shoot you, STOP.
Coroner's report; two shots to the heart proving fatal.
March 12th, 2007 11:49 AM
Oh certainly, that is why there is nothing better than being well trained and prepared.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
My husband, a former Marine, has taken a lot of time and effort to teach me some basic hand-to-hand things, but warns me all the time that if a BG gets within arms range of me (2 feet or less) I'm probably done for. At first I thought it was a little grim of him to say so until he demonstrated his point. He stood about two feet from me and said, "I'm going to go really slow, and keep in mind I'm not trying to hurt you, but I'm going to grab you and I'm going to ease you to the ground and I want you to try everything that you know, don't worry about hurting me, to try to stop me or fight me off."
He kept his word, he moved slow and I fought like CRAZY and he still had me subdued in a matter of seconds.
Then he said, "Remember, I was going slow and not trying to hurt you. I was just holding you and easing you to the ground, I wasn't hitting you, punching you, kicking you or doing anything that someone who cares less about you may try if they are out to get something you don't want to give.
"I'm sorry honey, but if you let someone get this close to you, you are done. That's why it's so important to NOT let them get this close."
It was a humbling exercize and one that has taught me most about my perimeter.
I don't look for people who are carrying, I look for people and how they are interacting with their environment. I try, always, to keep a high level of suspicious alertness. I may over read people but I'd rather over read than under read.
Yesterday, at the mall, when I got a bad "vibe" from the two guys, I stepped away from them, ensuring my back was not to them, switched my purse from my right hand (my gun hand) to my left hand. I put my right hand closer to my gun. I was pretty darned well dressed for carry yesterday and carrying the Mustang so I very much doubt that they noticed anything, but I wasn't going to give them the chance to get close enough for a second look.
No, I wouldn't have drawn on them without just cause, but any move they made closer to my general direction, made me take a few more steps away.
My perimeter is important to me. I certainly am not going to think any small advantage I may have is equal to or greater than the disadvantages I have.
March 12th, 2007 11:58 AM
That lima is what we all should make sure of ........ possibly THE biggest factor with awareness.
My perimeter is important to me.
Your main thrust in the thread ....... a sorta ''two way deal'' is one I think is spot on. It is probably true to say that on balance ladies are a more tempting victim prospect for BG's - whether it be robbery, rape - whatever. But if however a lady is at least seen to be alert then I'll bet that takes some temptation out of the equation.
The other side of the coin tho, I certainly agree with is, that a gun carrying lady with some training and abilities could well be a MUCH greater potential threat to a BG - simply because it may be so unexpected.
I can well imagine a situation where husband and wife get accosted and BG or BG's concentrate initially on the guy - during which phase the armed wife could well have a great tactical advantage.
Of course as ever circumstances alter events but for sure, I consider an armed lady a very useful potential defender - not to be under-rated at all I just wish more ladies would carry, altho I do think the percentages have improved in recent years.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
March 12th, 2007 12:09 PM
Lima, a little off topic, but get your husband to show you how to redirect/deflect energy in H2H. He will know what I am talking about.
The smallest of people can do this with great effect, and it will buy you more time to draw and escape if a BG does get within arms reach.
"Just blame Sixto"
M&P Doc- Just ask.
By The Expert in forum Defensive Carry Guns
Last Post: August 30th, 2010, 04:30 PM
By CarbineChris in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
Last Post: June 4th, 2010, 08:13 AM
By Pro2A in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
Last Post: January 28th, 2009, 01:43 AM
By ExactlyMyPoint in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
Last Post: November 23rd, 2008, 12:59 AM