Captain America Syndrome

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Originally Posted by PaulG

The points mentioned against my argument (the ones I buy into at least) all have to do with the risk to me. The amount of risk I accept is up to me.

I can't agree that I would be making matters worse and I don't buy into the rubbernecking example.

If I get to the shooter before the cops arrive, I am the only line of defense at that point (unless, hopefully, other armed citizens are around). Yeah, I know . . . they could pose a risk to me too.

If the cops get there first, I will stop where I am, leave the gun holstered and they can handle it.

If the cops arrive while I am firing at the bad guy, well. . . .I'll take that risk.

As far as providing the shooter with a weapon and a body for cover, he won't even know I'm armed until I have assessed the situation and made the determination that I have a good chance to take him out.

I guess my point was that the article seems to assume that anyone not originally at the scene of the shooting who goes there trying to help is trying to be Captain America. That is pure BS.

The bottom line for me is that things could go very, very well or very, very badly no matter what we do. I’ll err on the side of trying to do something to help.

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I would agree with you 100%. Costs and Benefits must be measured, and measured correctly at a split seconds notice. If one is not willing to accept the possibility that they could die while going into a hostile situation against (most likely) superior firepower then those are the sort that should stay put, and if that thought never enters your mind then you also should stay put because you are not thinking clearly.

Either way a cell phone call would be a great help to the first responders as your location and other such important variables that may not be available to them. A clear description of yourself and if possible the shooter is also a major priority. And above all do not argue with the police. To them anybody with a firearm in such a situation is suspect, and rightfully so.

I am going to be CC to make my wife feel better, because she knows that in that type of situation I would help those I could, regardless of being armed or not. Is that smart? Hell no! But I have heard the accounts of various shootings. The wounded if found by the shooter typically are executed. Knowing that, I will not stay and hide, but niether will I act like a baffoon and put on my cape. For I am willing to die doing such things if need be, however that is NEVER my first choice.

Nobody can make that choice for me, and nor will I make it for anybody else.

Sooo many variables! One thing to consider is that LEO's are trained to look for multiples. When they roll into a situation like that anyone they don't recognize that has a weapon is a threat that will have to be dealt with. Another to consider is when you turn that corner and see an unknown subject with a weapon in hand what do you do? Is that the bad guy or an off duty cop or another legally armed citizen? What do you think is going to happen if you shoot the off duty officer who was about to take down the bad guy that just ducked into that store?
IMHO the best course of action is to take up a defensive position and immediately call 9-1-1, give a description of yourself and your location and the area that you know is secure. Knowledge is power! If they can give you a description of the bad guy you are ahead of the game as it will make target identification much easier in the chaos.
If you engage and the bad guy withdraws from sight I would not pursue, my whole purpose at this point is still to deny him freedom of movement. If I hit him the SWAT team can follow the blood trail, if I didn't I don't want to walk into an ambush.
If there are a few more armed citizens in the mall and by chance we are doing essentially the same thing we can keep the bad guy pretty much isolated until the police arrive. If we all are wandering around looking for a shooter I think the odds are much higher of a case of mistaken identity and one of us good guys getting taken out.

Seems to me that if more folks woke up and started carrying, this would be less of an issue. Bad guy would pull, fire off one or two, then some guy or girl eating lunch at the food court would finish it before the BG even had to reload, without even putting their sandwich down.

We can't put a cop on every corner, but we can put an armed citizen on every corner.

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Originally Posted by mcp1810

When they roll into a situation like that anyone they don't recognize that has a weapon is a threat that will have to be dealt with.

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Obviously many things to consider, but if one did decide to act, watching the Utah mall shooting vid would be a good "mind-set primer".
Exactly how and what you identify yourself as varies with individual responsibilities and decisions, but it is important to have a plan in mind. This has been borne out by experience (and many recent studies:wink: ): those that have a plan have an exponentially better chance of survival, and better chance of surviving w/o PTSD.

Yeah, I've gotta agree. Don't go looking trouble, ESPECIALLY if you know it's close by.

More than enough trouble will find you in your life all by itself. It doesn't need your help.

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Originally Posted by PaulG

As far as providing the shooter with a weapon and a body for cover, he won't even know I'm armed until I have assessed the situation and made the determination that I have a good chance to take him out.

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That sounds like you are willing to head in the direction of someone already armed without your weapon even exposed. Sounds like suicide to me.

It also sounds like we are taking what started out as a generic situation and picking it to pieces. If a person starts out within the action when it begins they will need to be pro active. If the action starts down the hall, around the corner and people are already fleeing so that it would be like swimming upstream to get to the shooter, stay put or get out while you can. As others said, the cavalry will be there soon.

If more people were armed then there would be a better chance for an armed citizen to already be in the mix rather than a citizen have to find the mix.

I completely view my firearm as a defensive weapon. Taking a SINGLE step toward a fight you can't even see gives up "too much real estate" both literally and legally. You're moving toward a situation, for which you have absolutely no info ... You have less info about the situation than the BG AND the LEOs.

I'm not a coward, and I'm not an LEO, I don't play one, and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express. Common sense dictates you don't put yourself at risk when the odds are overwhelmingly against you. And, yes, I feel for the people in the line of fire .. but in a situation like this, lots of people, there are a lot of people out there who had the opportunity to obtain THEIR defensive CCW, just like we did, IMHO.

Tony

very good post. That's exactly how I think when I'm and about. I'm certainly not going to go looking for trouble if I can avoid it.. some situations you just put yourself at too much risk of looking like the bad guy if you go looking around.

Especially in a setting like a mall where it's so stretched out and you'd have to walk quite a distance to go find the trouble most likely.

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Originally Posted by Shadowsbane

I would agree with you 100%. Costs and Benefits must be measured, and measured correctly at a split seconds notice. If one is not willing to accept the possibility that they could die while going into a hostile situation against (most likely) superior firepower then those are the sort that should stay put, and if that thought never enters your mind then you also should stay put because you are not thinking clearly.

Either way a cell phone call would be a great help to the first responders as your location and other such important variables that may not be available to them. A clear description of yourself and if possible the shooter is also a major priority. And above all do not argue with the police. To them anybody with a firearm in such a situation is suspect, and rightfully so.

I am going to be CC to make my wife feel better, because she knows that in that type of situation I would help those I could, regardless of being armed or not. Is that smart? Hell no! But I have heard the accounts of various shootings. The wounded if found by the shooter typically are executed. Knowing that, I will not stay and hide, but niether will I act like a baffoon and put on my cape. For I am willing to die doing such things if need be, however that is NEVER my first choice.

Nobody can make that choice for me, and nor will I make it for anybody else.

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:congrats:

Like Malcom Reynolds said in Firefly, "you're my kind of stupid!" :hand56:

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Originally Posted by PaulG

:congrats:

Like Malcom Reynolds said in Firefly, "you're my kind of stupid!" :hand56:

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I would rather die by my principals than live with my regrets.

Btw Firefly rocked in ways that have not been rocked since.