Road Rage Confrontation

This is a discussion on Road Rage Confrontation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just because there is no duty to retreat, that does not mean it would not be your best tactical choice. Locking yourself in the car ...

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Thread: Road Rage Confrontation

  1. #16
    Member Array ber950's Avatar
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    Just because there is no duty to retreat, that does not mean it would not be your best tactical choice. Locking yourself in the car or increasing the distance show your intent to defuse the situation. Drawing a weapon is usually seen as an agressive action. Usually a kind word turneth away wrath.

    There was a case very simular to this in the Atl Metro area just a few years ago. It did not involve an accident, but the younger man felt the older guy had cut him off in heavy traffic. The younger guy jumped out of his car and started threating the OG. The OG shot him through the windshield of his van. The YG was hit in the head and died several days later.

    Result
    OG charged with murder. The main reasons he was found not guilty.
    1. He was very frail. (Disparity of force)
    2. The YG's girl friend testified he had used drugs all night and was still high at the time.

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  3. #17
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    Calling the cops is a good idea!

    My wife's mother (my mother in law?) had a similar experience in South Georgia.

    She was rear ended by a couple. It was a simple fender bender and there wasn't much if any damage to either car. Still, after inspecting the damage, she insisted on exchanging insurance information -- just in case.

    Immediately, the couple who rear-ended her unleashed a torrent of threats, slurs, and other obscenities. She felt threatened enough to get back in her car and call 911. They verbally assailed her from the other side of her window until they realized she was calling the police.

    Eventually an officer arrives and it turned out he's good friends with the rear-enders. IMHO, the people who rear-ended her at least deserved an assault charge but nothing ever came of it.

    Since then, I've decided that, for the reason jhollow mentioned, the first thing to do in a fender bender it to call 911. That way everything will be recorded and hopefully this will keep everyone polite.

  4. #18
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    Yeah I like the Idea of always calling and getting atleast a "non-reportable" form filled out by the local police. It will inevitably help the insurance company and will verify the actual damage to the vehicles that was there after the accident incase the other party decides to try to do more dammage (I also carry a disposable camera for this reason).

    Additionally I know a friend who was the YG in a simular situation. He rear-ended a car and when he and the elderly lady pulled over he (Being an over eager young firefighter) jumpped out of the car and went running up to see if she was ok. She stayed in the car called the cops and nothing came of it. But she did tell the police she was scared of the young man so they did respond fast untill finding out who it was (Our Fd capt is also local PD and arrived first).
    My friend was told by the Capt. next time calm down because you scared her even though you had good intentions.

    In your senerio I say try to retreat and if forced to you are forced to.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  5. #19
    JID
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    I'm surprised that no one seems to have any sort of non-lethal back up in their solution. A good pocket can of pepper spray will do a lot to fend off the "rager's" threats. Should he continue to pursue you as you back away, spray him. I believe that LEO's would use this approach as well. Anybody want to back me up?
    I keep a small can in my car, and carry it whenever I feel that I'm in a place where a non-lethal threat might come into play. I will not draw on a BG unless I am confident my life, not injury, is dependant on it. At the same time, I'm not going to let some guy, who obviously can beat my tail in a fist fight, take me down. Pepper spray puts us on a level playing field. One punch from him, and I'm down for the count. One spray from me, and he's down. If he keeps coming, unphased by the spray, now I have a "fear for life" scenario coming at me. By all means, get back in the car. But if things escalate before you can retreat that far, have a back up that does not include deadly force.

  6. #20
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    If he just threatens you I would not advise drawing your weapon. It's a very large grey area here in terms of you justifying drawing your weapon, or using your weapon. It may all really depend on what judge you get. But again, wouldn't advise it.

    What I would advise, like many already stated, getting into your car and calling 911. Advise 911 that you feel threatened, are locked into your car and are carrying a weapon. At this point, if he continues his attack, meaning breaking your windows to reach you drawing your weapon would 100% be reasonable. Then warn if the attack continues you will open fire (all this while the 911 dispatcher is on the line) and if it does...open fire. This is a worst case scenario of an obviously deranged man, most likely on drugs. But hell, that's why we carry right?

    I'd say that if you did what I described you would have a very good chance of not being charged with a single thing. You'd just have to fix your car up.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    First thing to do is back away from the vehicle you just rear ended/drive away from the one who just hit you from behind and leave 1-2 vehicle lenghts in between you and the other vehicle.

    Scan the area and look for things that don't look right/bad gut feelings/etc

    If the other driver is a bigger guy than you... don't even get out of the car.

    Bigger guys (plural) than you on the other vehicle, don't even stop and get out - roll down the window a bit as you drive pass them and let them know you are going to the nearest police station while you call it in to the police (writte down the other vehicle's license plate/description, as well as a description of the ocupants before you leave the scene). Some states allow you up to 4 hours to report a motor vehicle accident - there's a reason for than. Get hit and run insurance on your policy - just in case you get hit and they take off when you mention the police.

    If you think is safe...

    With your vehicle's engine running and while in gear, roll down the window about 2"... when he comes up to your window, let him know you'll call the police so they can check the damage/writte a report.

    Watch his reactions while you have your firearm close by (preferably have it in your hand, but concealed from view - figure a way to do so safely way in advance [you practice firing at the range, practice firearms presentation from your vehicle as well]); action beats reaction (google videos of traffic stops and watch how fast cops get into gun fights with the driver/paxs).

    Be ready to present your firearm if he makes any moves that resemble actions likely to produce a firearm from his back/under his jacket/etc.

    Tell him to return to his vehicle while you get your insurance papers ready to exchange info when the police arrives (the more distance in between you guys the better). If he gets jumpy, drive away and call the police away from the scene.

    Pull your firearm and deal with the threat accordingly only if you have no other options available (driving away is an option the prosecutor will most likely use against you, so use it before you have to shot).

    If the situation escaleates, call the police somewhere else - don't get distracted dialing 911 and loose track of the agressor/his actions.

    At all times watch for firearms being pulled (you could just have rear ended a very bad guy - i.e. someone traffiking with drugs/guns/etc).

    If he is no threat, he'll just think you are paranoid (probably saying "old coward fart/puss/ect doesn't have the guts to get out and talk") and wait for the police.

    Take pictures of your/the other vehicle when the police arrives (just imagine the other guy watching you pull out a camera and start snapping away at his car - can you say mayor piss off time?).

    Again, don't get out of the car and be ready to drive away/shot if you need to.

    Just my 2 cents.

  8. #22
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    Pepper spray? I feel ambivalent about it if we are talking using it from the inside of the vehicle. One wrong move and the stuff bounces back and you are the one incapacitated. OTOH if your only tool is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails and we don't want to treat every case as possible use of deadly force.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    Ordinarily I would be with JID on the OC spray thing. In this case though, it could put a nasty twist on things. For instance lets say this is along a very busy road. Bg starts making threats, and advances depsite warnings so you spay him. The BG then turns and stumbles into traffic, thereby becoming road pizza.
    I would stay in the car with 911 on the phone. If the bg gets that nasty, throw it in gear and get out of there, all the while telling the 911 dispatcher what is going on.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Pepper spray? I feel ambivalent about it if we are talking using it from the inside of the vehicle. One wrong move and the stuff bounces back and you are the one incapacitated. OTOH if your only tool is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails and we don't want to treat every case as possible use of deadly force.
    I know this may not be directed at all but...


    Just a reminder that for some of us pepper spray can be just as dangerous for us as the attacker themself. Personally I will NEVER use pepper spray because I have asthma. Although very slight pepper spray is something that does cause mine to flare up (mom accidently discharged a can in our house and put herself and I into asthma attacks). So it is not an option here and I do not want to allow a threat to get close enough for me o use a knife. Some of us come without a fully stocked tool box because the other tools are too dangerous for our use not because we only like our hammer.
    /
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  11. #25
    JID
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSamaritan View Post
    Ordinarily I would be with JID on the OC spray thing. In this case though, it could put a nasty twist on things. For instance lets say this is along a very busy road. Bg starts making threats, and advances depsite warnings so you spay him. The BG then turns and stumbles into traffic, thereby becoming road pizza.
    I would stay in the car with 911 on the phone. If the bg gets that nasty, throw it in gear and get out of there, all the while telling the 911 dispatcher what is going on.
    I feel that I need to clarify my original post.
    I am a very strong proponent of staying in the car. It is definately safer for you to stay in your "castle". Wait for the other guy to get out of his car first. This allows you to observe his dimeanor from a safe place. As you observe him, call 911 to report the accident from your car. If he is really upset, communicate that to the dispatcher. If he comes to your window, tell him that you are on the phone with 911, and that they suggested that everyone just stay in their cars until LEO arrived. This should be enough to knock some sense in the guy. But if not, communicate with the dispatcher as necessary. Of course, as stated before, do not spray somebody from within your vehicle. You should not have to deal with the rager directly unless he breaks your window, and is coming in after you. In this scenario, use wisdom, and handle things the best way you see fit.
    Now, WTBS, if I observe the guy and he seems calm and collected, and I feel safe, I'm probably going to get out of the car and greet him. My greeting will start with, "I have already called 911". Hopefully, knowing that LEO is on the way will deter any escalation of the situation. If however, the guy turns on a dime and suddenly becomes biligerent and threatening, I am going to get back to my car as fast as possible.
    Here is where the spray comes in.
    If I cannot retreat, and I fear more for my butt getting kicked than for my actual existance, I'm going to spray him and then complete my retreat back to my car. Even if I get some blow back and the spray gets me too, I've been able to retreat to my car, and I'm not on the ground getting my brains beat in.
    As for the what if he "stumbles into traffic, thereby becoming road pizza" possibility, it's a very good point. However, if he gets a hold of me, I may become road pizza. Given the options, I choose him.

    I havn't been a member here for long, but I am really enjoying the exchange of ideas and opinions. I think that discussing possible scenarios really helps our ability to perform more effectively should the scenario actually present itself.

  12. #26
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    JID, like we have discussed in another threads: There is no perfect answer and one should tailor the actions to be taken according to the situation.
    That being said, we all should have a "bag" of different tools available to face a situation. Most of us carry a gun and a knife, right? so why not carry a small can of pepper spray too? If you have a light, right there you have an impact weapon or you can get one of those plastic karambits (Ex-S is gonna kill me for forgetting the actual name) or similar weapon. Sometimes just the "tought" of a less than lethal tool like pepper spray can slow down events.
    About a couple of years ago we had a small incident at the hotel I work. A customer was at the restaurant, intoxicated, obnoxious, verbally abusive to staff and other customers and the manager decided to cut him off alcohol and present him with the bill in the hope he would leave. The guy got angrier and security (li'l ole me) was called without the guy's knowledge. I was asked to "drop by" not to respond to see if the guy would cool his heels with my presence. I got there with my best "Oh my!" face and acting like another expectator....but did not work; the guy did not slow down one bit when he looked at me. At the time I used to carry a Pelikan on a nylon holster w/ a velcro flap (my only "weapon" allowed) and my hand calmly posed on top of the holster. The bully saw my movement, saw the pouch and said: "Hey, no need for the pepper spray. I'll pay and leave." And he did without any more trouble!
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by me View Post
    I know this may not be directed at all but...


    Just a reminder that for some of us pepper spray can be just as dangerous for us as the attacker themself. Personally I will NEVER use pepper spray because I have asthma. Although very slight pepper spray is something that does cause mine to flare up (mom accidently discharged a can in our house and put herself and I into asthma attacks). So it is not an option here and I do not want to allow a threat to get close enough for me o use a knife. Some of us come without a fully stocked tool box because the other tools are too dangerous for our use not because we only like our hammer.
    /
    You know that is an great point. My wife has asthma and for that reason I do not carry it. I would hate to have to use it, chase off the attacker and put her in the hospital at the same time.
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  14. #28
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    After reading all of the posts here is what I will do if this ever happens. Stay in my car and call 911 to report the accident. If the other driver comes to my car, roll down the window a bit and tell him I am on the phone with the police(911) and will stay in my car and wait for the LEO to arrive. If he gets belligerent, I will drive away, if Possible, reporting to the 911 operator what is happening, and ask for directions. If I can't drive away for some reason and the other driver goes crazy and starts banging my car, I will not react, but if he starts attempting to break my window to get at me then, at that point, I would have little choice but to draw my weapon.

    Thanks again for all the great posts.

    Ron

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