Road Rage Confrontation

Road Rage Confrontation

This is a discussion on Road Rage Confrontation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I realize that this topic has been raised a number of times in a number of different ways, and in spite of many well thought ...

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  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
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    Road Rage Confrontation

    I realize that this topic has been raised a number of times in a number of different ways, and in spite of many well thought out posts, I never felt that we arrived at a satisfactory response. So, with advanced apologies, here it goes again. Assume that I am driving and the car in front of mine stops suddenly and I hit it. Maybe it is his fault for stopping so suddenly, or maybe it is my fault for following too closely. We both get out of our cars to inspect the damage to our vehicles, neither of us is apparently hurt.

    The other driver is young, and big. I, on the othr hand, am a senior. When he sees that his car has sustained some serious damage, he flies into a rage. He begins yelling at me calling me every bad word in the book. I try my best to defuse the situation by apologizing, taking responsibility for the accident and assuring him that my insurance company will repair his car.

    This only sets him off further and he then begins to approach me telling me that his is going to Kick my a..s, and teach me a lesson about careful driving.

    At that point I begin to back away, again telling him that I am sorry, that it was an accident and I have no interest in fighting with him. This does not deter him and he becomes even more angry telling me that he is really going to teach me a lesson.

    Now, for purpose of my question, please assume that the facts as I have just related them are accepted as true by the cop who arrives at the scene and by the prosecutor. Assume also that the state this happens in has a statute not requiring retreat in the face of a threat causing reasonable fear of death or serious physical injury

    OK, here is my first question: Based on the facts above, again accepted as true by the authorities, Am I justified in drawing my weapon and telling him to back off? And, here is my second question, if he continues his attack(just fists on his part) am I justified in using deadly force?

    That's it. I know I should drive more carefully, etc., but I am looking for some authoritive answers to my questions, because this is the kind of confrontation that I think is very realistic.

    Thanks.

    Ron


  2. #2
    Member Array aepilotjim's Avatar
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    I guess the rule of thumb here is the "reasonable man" one. Would any other reasonable person have a fear of imminate harm or death. Then its justifiable. You might end up in court to prove that. The laws arent based on what you're being attacked with. Guns, knives, sticks, fists, dirty diapers... Just that you were afraid for your life and limb and those of your loved ones.

  3. #3
    Member Array cray's Avatar
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    Tough question, and one likely only answered by a lawyer "authoritatively." But, even his/her perspective means little to a jury.

    First .. disparity of force may be an issue .. a senior against a strong young man and second, you CANNOT get into a struggle with this guy .. not because you don't to get yer butt kicked, but because you're carrying a firearm and you don't want to allow him access to it.

    In your position, I'm thinking I'm going to back up as far as I can, even get in my car if possible. You pull a gun in traffic and everyone who can see but can't hear, just saw you pull a gun on an unarmed man, after running over his car .. again, not a good situation. As in a lot of these scenarios, nothing is black and white, and the devil is in the details. I'll look forward to hearing from the group.

    Tony

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array blueyedevil's Avatar
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    Bad scenario, at the point the other guy gets aggresive and threatening disengage, get in your car (lock doors) and call the cops and inform them of the situation. If the guy starts to escalate the situation further you have one more layer of protection, and evidence that he was the aggressor. As for the legality, every state is different, some have "castle doctrine" laws some don't. If you don't know the deadly force laws in your state, educate yourself. But regardless of the legality, if you have a reasonable option in which to avoid the fight, it is most likely in your interest to do so.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array kylebce's Avatar
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    That is a bad place to be no doubt. I would try to difuse the situation as mentioned, I would even try some humor. I believe the key is to keep backing away- both psychologically and for any witnesses driving by.

    If you can actually get into the car that's best. Once inside 911. I would let him take it out on the car if he wants. The action threshold would be him breaking out a window.

    If he blocks your access to your door- then action is sooner. it's probably time to draw.

  6. #6
    Member Array lilducky08's Avatar
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    IMHO when you are carrying you are responsible to NOT allow a road rage situation to get this far. The first time the hairs on the back of your neck begin to raise, you need to take immediate action to get into your car and lock the doors and call 9-1-1. At this point, there is no way this guy can get to you without causing destruction to your vehicle. At this point, it is still imperative you stay in your car and drive away if it gets this far (continuing to talk with the police). You CAN NOT get into a hand to hand fight while carrying. Unless they are coming at you with a gun or a knife, I don't think you will win a case in court. A jury sees that you would have ended up with a bashed up piece ofmaterialism in the shape of a car, some bruises and scars on your body, but instead of that you KILL him. That is not going to look good in court. I am not one for taking a beating, but I am also not one for taking someone's life because they were a bit heated after an accident and wanted to lay a few punches on me. That is why it is crucial to AVOID and be able to get into your car. The whole time you interact with the person you hit, you need to keep your need to get into your car in mind. Alsways keep your awareness up and don't let yourself get into a hand to hand altercation.

    Good scenario, because accidents happen to good people.
    Our own heart, and not other men's opinion, forms our true honor. ~ Samuel Coleridge

  7. #7
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    Depends on the laws of the State, but I'd go with getting the cellphone, dial 911 and get back in the car. I rather have the guy beating the crap out of my truck than me. If he breaches my vehicle then you may want to consider going for a stronger self-defense posture or start your engine and leave the scene... all these while still on the cellphone talking to 911. IMHO it is a better tactic to avoid confrontation and back off EVEN IF YOUR STATE HAS A NO-RETREAT LAW.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Rugerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilducky08 View Post
    IMHO when you are carrying you are responsible to NOT allow a road rage situation to get this far. The first time the hairs on the back of your neck begin to raise, you need to take immediate action to get into your car and lock the doors and call 9-1-1. At this point, there is no way this guy can get to you without causing destruction to your vehicle. At this point, it is still imperative you stay in your car and drive away if it gets this far (continuing to talk with the police). You CAN NOT get into a hand to hand fight while carrying. Unless they are coming at you with a gun or a knife, I don't think you will win a case in court. A jury sees that you would have ended up with a bashed up piece ofmaterialism in the shape of a car, some bruises and scars on your body, but instead of that you KILL him. That is not going to look good in court. I am not one for taking a beating, but I am also not one for taking someone's life because they were a bit heated after an accident and wanted to lay a few punches on me. That is why it is crucial to AVOID and be able to get into your car. The whole time you interact with the person you hit, you need to keep your need to get into your car in mind. Alsways keep your awareness up and don't let yourself get into a hand to hand altercation.

    Good scenario, because accidents happen to good people.
    This one is right on the money. If you can retreat, do so. If he still comes at you and for some reason you cannot drive off(car is blocked in) and he breaks your window you have no choice but to protect your life.
    George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed."

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
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    OK, guys. Thanks. Those were very good comments and recommendations. It is that kind of situation that scars me because you need to get out of your car to exchange documents and would normally have no idea that you might be dealing with a lunatic. And could possibly be far enough away from your car that you could not get back inside before being attacked.

    I guess the answer, as you all stated, is to be more alert for problems when carrying.

    Ron

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    These guys all have some good advice. I think the most important thing is to avoid a fight . Get into your car and call 911 and tell them what is going on. I think that shooting this guy would be a huge mistake and would do anything to avoid it. If he were to try and pull you out of the car that will give you cause due to he would have to break glass to get to you

  11. #11
    Member Array Tye_Defender's Avatar
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    Call 911 right away if you feel threatened.

    I think it was the officer teaching my CCW class that told me this, but as soon as 911 connects the recording starts as well.

    If someone is coming at you yelling after the accident, if you can dial 911, do it before you have to draw. If you tell him you are calling the police that might be enough but if not, then draw and start yelling "stop, stop or I'll shoot" etc. loud enough to be recorded. That way you have an audio record of your side at least. Hopefully the gun will be enough to deter him but if not then it might make a difference in a trial. It might help to convince a jury that you were threatened when they hear you yelling stop a couple times and he is still coming at you.

    On a side note, he suggested doing this in any situation where it is possible. For example, you are in a convenience store that is being robbed. You aren't sure that you will need to act but might need to. If possible, dial 911 and put the phone on the shelf so you have your hands free but they can still hear you. If nothing else, you will get an officer there a little faster. It also gives you an audio record of the incident which helps as well.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    "hairs on the back of your neck standing up" ...that really does say it right there. that's the fear of your own life telling you what to do.
    What's this button do?

  13. #13
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    After The Crash...

    I'd be calling 911 anyway...I would be the first one to call! If things started going south at any point, my conversation would end and I would either get in my car, or walk back to some other witnesses and wait for cops...if the guy followed me, now he's the aggressor.

    Staying in the car is also a good idea. If in an area with no witnesses, I would call 911 and tell them why I am driving away...to avoid a beating...until help can arrive...I might only go a 1/4 mile or so, but I'd get away from the immediate area...if on the phone with 911, I don't believe there would be a problem...if forced to defend yourself.

    OMO

    Stay armed...stay safe!

    ret
    Last edited by RETSUPT99; March 29th, 2007 at 12:11 AM.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Array tegemu's Avatar
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    In Florida, I would answer yes to both of your questions. He poses a definate threat of serious bodily injury/death and has the capability to do it.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf. - George Orwell

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    Just my $0.02
    Whenever involved in an auto accident, call to report the accident before you get out of your vehicle. The damage isn't going to be any worse if you wait a few more seconds to get out and inspect it. Until you get an idea of how the other person is going to react, staying in the car, or at least behind the open door is a good idea. That way if the other guy turns out to be a nutjob, you will already be on the phone with the police, and you will give him a few extra moments to see his car and fly into that rage of his. If possible make sure he hears you giving the details and location to the police.

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