Bad Guys And Body Armor

This is a discussion on Bad Guys And Body Armor within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A lot of variables to consider. What cal handgun are you carrying? Do you know he is wearing a vest? I carry a .45acp, and ...

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Thread: Bad Guys And Body Armor

  1. #16
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    Red face

    A lot of variables to consider. What cal handgun are you carrying? Do you know he is wearing a vest?

    I carry a .45acp, and if I know he's wearing a vest, I would probably make my first two shots for the lower pelvic/butt/groin....that should either put him on the ground, or at least stop his motion enough for follow-up head shots....this really makes me think more about carrying more than just the one mag!

    If I don't know that he's wearing vest, then I'd follow the COM...1 2 3 method til it was obvious he was wearing, then go back to my previous response...or just duck & jive my way outta the situation.

    I liked the comment about LEOs being better off with 30-30....I would thing just getting their AR types in .308 would fair them pretty well against body armor.....Of course we all know "Dirty Harry" kept a .458 handy !

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  3. #17
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    ExSoldier762

    Hi Exsoldier
    I did read your post & it was great.
    I was just reinforcing what you had already stated.
    You (and your information) were 100% correct.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  4. #18
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    I believe in the fail to stop drill. A vest will protect someone but , its gonna slow em down a lot witha good hit or 2. Some of the body armor is very concealable and in a shooting situation ya may not realize one is wearing it. yes a rifle would be good if ya can get to 1 but , its not gonna happen most of the time. If some one is wearing heavy body armor I would retreat if if possible and find a rifle.

  5. #19
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    Your standard vest is quite detectable under light weight tight fitting shirts if you look you can see them on most cops, on the other hand, I have a 2nd chance level IIA extended coverage deep cover vest in a T-shirt carrier that I have worn under a golf shirt without detection. In fact I was waiting for my sheriff deputy buddy one afternoon to ride a split (11 AM-7:00 PM) shift on a pot patch hunt, and was having a coke at the coffee shop when a lady I knew came in and we started talking. She is the touchy feely type and put her hand on my shoulder as we talked, then I felt her fingers start squeezing and moving and she got this funny look on her face and asked “What’s this”? Now remember I was going on “patrol” and sitting there with a .45 strong side OWB, 2 spare mags weak side and a set of cuffs SOB which she had to have seen but she didn’t even think I might have on a vest and with all the cops that frequented this place and she knew she had seen plenty of vests. When we were in the bushes I also have a standard level II extended coverage vest I put over the golf shirt, hoping if I took a hit the double vests would stop even the highest powered handgun slug and spread the impact trauma to keep from being incapacitated.

    Even with the standard vest and a light shirt it would be hard to tell if a BG was armored at more than 25 yards, so keep popping caps as long as he is standing and be ready for alternitive targets to COM as needed.

  6. #20
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    Red face

    Darn....F350! Enough about the vest...finish the story about the lady!!!!

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by acparmed
    Legally speaking if the BG is not wearing a vest and you opt for the head shot first it will not go well in front of a jury.
    Why? I'm not trying to be a smart*** here, I'm just curious about that statement. I'd think that, if lethal force is warranted, it wouldn't matter how/where it was applied.

    SSKC

  8. #22
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    If the vest wearer is not smart enough to conceal the vest, he is not real smart. Wore one for many years, daily, and it was always well concealed. Second Chance vests usually with deep cover carriers.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

  9. #23
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    i know i,m a little late posting on this one, but wanted to add my $.02 worth. i'm not LE, nor have i ever been in a combat situation, so i read what you guys have to say in case i ever get into a sticky situation. when i took my CCW course, my instructor (ex-LE and airborne) taught us to go for the umbilicus area, saying that anything slightly right, left, up, or down would incapacitate. i had always read COM, or double tap, or keep firing at COM until the BG was down and out. head shots harder unless you're pretty good and the BG is pretty close. i'm not sure what i'd do at this point, but if faced with a crisis, i guess i'd start with the belly button and work my way up until the mag was empty. any thoughts?
    Last edited by older gunner; May 1st, 2005 at 07:56 PM.

  10. #24
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    Wink Nomenclature is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by older gunner
    i'm not sure what i'd do at this point, but if faced with a crisis, i guess i'd start with the belly button and work my way up until the clip was empty. any thoughts?
    Not trying to be picky but the "instructor" in me would point out that it's not a CLIP, it's a MAGAZINE or a mag. LOL, Sorry.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Not trying to be picky but the "instructor" in me would point out that it's not a CLIP, it's a MAGAZINE or a mag. LOL, Sorry.
    hey "Ex", not to worry. i should have known better. i guess old habits die hard. somewhere i picked up the term "clip", but i do know better. thanks for the the "heads-up" any thoughts about the my scenerio?

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team American
    Is it obvious when a person is wearing body armor? I've never seen it up close.
    Trying to hit a moving head at any longer ranges has to be pretty tough...the recent Texas shoot-out was fought at about 50 yards (if I recall correctly). Would the pelvic girdle or thigh bones be a legitimate target at those distances, or is that asking for WAY more trouble than you would already have on your hands?
    I've noticed LEOs wearing vests and they always look a lot beefier than normal...course that may be normal for some. As for pelvic area, Bumper and I were talking about that as an alternative first shot area. With a hefty size caliber, you're likely to shatter the pelvic bone, and I don't think the BG is gonna go anywhere but down at that point. That area is certainly a larger target than a head and if you miss, the shot is headed downward. Shooting at a thigh would be about the same as trying a head shot in my opionion, and besides, it won't necessarily take the BG down for the follow through shots.
    "Endeavor To Persevere"
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  13. #27
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    The initial shots to the chest are going to reset the BG's OODA loop and will buy you more time to line up for the headshot.

    Prospector, you can not reliably incapacitate someone with a shot to the pelvis using a handgun. The bone's are a lot heftier than you think and the dish shape makes it excellent at deflecting slow moving handgun rounds. If you had a rifle, maybe. With a pistol, stick to COM.

  14. #28
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    Old style vest, obvious, newer ones, not so obvious. If you double tap COM, and they don't drop, don't assume ammo/placement failure, assume vest. Shoot head or pelvis.
    Bumper, I wore a vest every day for 8.5 years, and I always wore my trauma plate, but I always was a rebel....went to work without my vest once, and boy did I feel naked all day long!
    If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by acparmed
    I do not advocate the "Mozambique" in self-defense scenarios involving citizens and CCW's. The two (or four) COM shots will stun and injure your opponent (if he is wearing a vest) that gives you the necessary time to place your head shot. This is what a failure to stop drill is, not an automatic headshot following your COM shots.

    In all my training and experience the COM double tap (which is two controlled, sighted shots in under one second) or the hammer (which is two shots fired at close range in under 1/2 second) is the best option to use to stop an aggressor.
    I teach students to fire this sequence and if a failure to stop is observed follow up with two more COM shots then carefully sight for the headshot.
    I know I'm late getting into this, but it is interesting!

    Acparmed,
    I'm with you about the "Mozambique" in self-defense. My personal position is that the "Mozambique" is useless for anything but a skill drill, and I can't see much value in it for that. The "Mozambique" reinforces one to stand still and take on three armed BGs and some variations require a reload right out in the open. However, I suppose if I had three BGs behind me, perfectly spaced and squared off to me, perfectly still, in bright daylight and one of them was thoughtful enough to blow a whistle to let me know they were behind me and intended to begin firing at me...

    A bit of a diffenence in defintions: I've always been taught that a double tap is a sighted shot followed by a rapid unsighted shot. A controlled pair is two rapid sighted shots. I never have figured out what a hammer is exactly, although I did read what it is somewhere.

    I was taught the double tap at Gunsite (one sighted shot followed quickly by one unsighted shot) as a standard response. Thunder Ranch teaches two rapid sighted shots as a standard response.

    I shoot a lot, about 200 rounds a week, all defensive shooting oriented. I am accurate and fast - I say that not to boast, but to say this: I find, and I think this lends support to what Acparmed teaches, that while I can shoot acceptable double taps (one sighted, one non-sighted), out to about 5 yards, it seems that one, significant practice is required to get consistent, acceptable hits and two, the skill seems to be, at least for me, rather perishable. Further, I find from time to time, I have one of those "fliers"; you know, where we blow the shot and call it a flier as if that makes it ok somehow?

    Wow, that's a lot of words to say this: I am becoming more and more convinced that two rapid sighted shots have a higher probability of producing two good hits than a double tap. I realize there are some who can really do great shooting double taps, but more median shooters like police officers and civies that don't /can't/won't shoot much, would be much better served with two sighted shots instead of trying to do double taps.

    Also it seems to me that sighted shots work at any distance where double taps (my definition) are range limited to about 5 yards.

    My compliments, Acparmed, on what I consider wise shooting tactics.

    I've already "talked" way too much, but if you guys can tolerate one more comment: A failure drill, as we all realize, is some method to incapacitate a lethal attack ASAP. I agree with what I have been taught, defensive shooting is situational driven. E.g. if two COMs don't do the job and I have a good chance of hitting the head, I'd probably do the head shot. If the head isn't available, I should immediately go to the groin/pelvid area. I do not consider a hit in the pevlic area nearly as good as a head shot, but there's a good possiblity he will go down or at least be immobilized by the pelvic shot(s). Then, I'll probably have a better shot at the head.

    The method, two COM shots, assess, shoot as dictated by the situation, is sound tactics I believe. But I must qualify this by saying the assessment must be nearly instantaneous and decisive. The shot must be fired smoothly and at once if necessary. I would venture to say, that if we were to observe a well executed two COM, assess, head shot we would think it was pre-decided to fire the three shots, when reality was that there was a quick assessment and then the head shot.

    One of my instructors said (may have been Clint Smith, I'm not sure though) "Take the two COM shots, look for the head, if it is up, then he is not down, he is still a threat, how long should you wait before you make the head shot?" In this scenario, you shoot two COMs, assess instantaneously, see he's still a threat so you shoot the head quickly.

    Sorry guys, I talk too much.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Cool Verbiage

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    A bit of a diffenence in defintions: I've always been taught that a double tap is a sighted shot followed by a rapid unsighted shot. A controlled pair is two rapid sighted shots. I never have figured out what a hammer is exactly, although I did read what it is somewhere. I was taught the double tap at Gunsite (one sighted shot followed quickly by one unsighted shot) as a standard response. Thunder Ranch teaches two rapid sighted shots as a standard response.

    The method, two COM shots, assess, shoot as dictated by the situation, is sound tactics I believe. But I must qualify this by saying the assessment must be nearly instantaneous and decisive. The shot must be fired smoothly and at once if necessary. I would venture to say, that if we were to observe a well executed two COM, assess, head shot we would think it was pre-decided to fire the three shots, when reality was that there was a quick assessment and then the head shot.
    According to Jeff Cooper (who originally founded GunSite as the American Pistol Institute) your description of "Double Tap" fits HIS of "Hammer."

    I think I'd rather be smooth, accurate and tactically sound than "fast." IMHO, unless you're drawing against an already drawn gun (that thread has already been posted, btw), you're either going to have all the time in the world to draw....or no time at all. If you've made "Condition Yellow" (another Cooperism) a way of life, you'll have all the time you need, even if that is only moments. If you're not ready for "that moment" you could have all the time in the world and it won't be enough.

    I think the Mozambique was meant for combat situations rather than civvie self defense or LEO applications.

    I am becoming more and more convinced that two rapid sighted shots have a higher probability of producing two good hits than a double tap.
    I agree 100%
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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