Bad Guys And Body Armor - Page 3

Bad Guys And Body Armor

This is a discussion on Bad Guys And Body Armor within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Holy smokes! I too am on board with Tangle on this one! I have to agree with that completely. I do the Mozambique because I ...

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Thread: Bad Guys And Body Armor

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Jumping on the bandwagon

    Holy smokes! I too am on board with Tangle on this one! I have to agree with that completely.

    I do the Mozambique because I feel it better simulates real firing conditions that just sitting there and cranking them out. It also has helped me increase my control over follow up shots and handling in general.

    But my thinking has always been, unless it's some crazy scenario, like the one poor Mr. Wilson found himself in, put a couple right there in the COM and THEN look for the headshot. I am so glad to see someone else out there smarter than I am about these things has that same line of thinking!


  2. #32
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    Decided Not To

    Decided not to interrupt the flow of this thread with that dumb photo. The topic is too important. See how mature I'm becoming?
    Last edited by QKShooter; May 5th, 2005 at 04:15 PM. Reason: EDIT OUT PHOTO

  3. #33
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    I agree with Tangle and acparmed on this one, as well. I prefer a controlled pair over the double tap unless very close. I would prefer to make my first two count and assess the situation before delivering the third to the head. People do frequently "assume" that by assessing between shots 2 and 3 you are talking about taking your time (or at least too much time) for the assessment. It result should sound like three, not two plus one.

    A bit of a diffenence in defintions: I've always been taught that a double tap is a sighted shot followed by a rapid unsighted shot. A controlled pair is two rapid sighted shots. I never have figured out what a hammer is exactly, although I did read what it is somewhere.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  4. #34
    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    never thought of a double tap that way, just figured it for two quick shots. I don't think the controlled pair has to be any slower than the double tap. Assessment doesn't have to take any time either. an assessment is the wrong word, it doesn't have to be anything more than a realization that he's not dead on the ground yet.

    When i'm at the range i do not practice the mozambique or cotrolled pairs. I think getting into the habbit of shooting a set number of shots and assessing is bad. change it around. 3 chest 2 head, 4 head, 6 chest 3 head, 2 head 1 chest. Don't get into a pattern since you never know what shot will make itself available first.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    I think I'd rather be smooth, accurate and tactically sound than "fast."
    Absolutely! This makes such an important point. Shooting is shooting, defensive shooting is shooting (accurately of course) AND tactics.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    IMHO, unless you're drawing against an already drawn gun (that thread has already been posted, btw), you're either going to have all the time in the world to draw....or no time at all.
    Wow! Another good point. I believe it again speaks of the importance of tactics. We of course, want to use our tactics to keep us in the "...all the time in the world to draw..." mode. But the best tactics in the world can't avoid every "...no time at all...", but hopefully we won't ever face one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    If you've made "Condition Yellow" (another Cooperism) a way of life, you'll have all the time you need, even if that is only moments. If you're not ready for "that moment" you could have all the time in the world and it won't be enough.
    I'm afraid my condition yellow has been pretty pale lately; time to get back on track.

  6. #36
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Holy smokes! I too am on board with Tangle on this one! I have to agree with that completely.
    Great minds think alike! Why can't i put that green big smiley face here?

  7. #37
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    Bad Guy in Body Armor

    First of all, we can always hope they have one of the Point Blank vests rejected by the Marine Corps that failed the tests. Second, I like the idea of the Mozambique (Two hugs and a kiss) as my trainer said the two shots to center will (most likely) stun or cause the bad guy to pause for an instant. I also know of an L.E.O. who was hit while wearing a vest and spent several days in the hospital recovering. I don't know what caliber it was but produced a very large, very ugly bruise. He described it as akin to a sledge hammer. I have seen projectiles turned out of solid brass that were reputed to penetrate body armor, but then you face a liability, both in the use of such and perhaps if they were found in your weapon. Still, perhaps, better than dead.....................

  8. #38
    Member Array speedtuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    This is exactly why the "Failure to Stop" drill was invented. IOW: Two to the chest (pause--check) and one to the head makes CERTAIN they're DEAD.
    this guy know what he is talking about!
    just take how you com in to the mess in the first place like your walking by a bank about 50' away there are many cars coming and going and parked every where when you might hear gun shots so you get pumped up and take cover first behind a car you think that a guy that just robed a bank is going to just walk out and get into his car. HELL NO! he is going get out side and run like hell to his carif you think you can make a runing head shot take it but my self would go for the mass in the body cuz if you miss you know he is going to unload his mag on you well he is still runing. but if you shoot in the mass and make a hit. he is going to ether fall down and give up or get shocked and don't know what to do and stumable around a little before he unloadeds his clip. plus that shot you made should have been with +p any way. (this guy prob got the cheapest body armer he could find on the internet class 1a stuff and a 45 +P wold go about 3" though that armeryou might not kill him but if a bullet is inside of him he would have to go to the hospital where by law they would have to call the poilce for a GSW "gun shot wound" by law) a boddy shot will win inless you can pull off a head shot in that 20 fett out the door to his getaway car.

  9. #39
    New Member Array RazorWire's Avatar
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    Look at the test specs for a level IIIA (+P 9 mm, 45 ACP, and 44 Mag) the vest can deflect up to 1.73 inches and still pass. That deep a dent over the heart will certanly get the BG's attention. I was taught to keep firing until the BG drops, all being quick aim, thowing lead is a wast, aim all, keep it up until your target is down. I heard from a reliable source of a BG being shot 6 or more times (probably dead on 1st) and the court (hearing) finding for the GG. Simply said, I was scared for my life, and he kept moving.

  10. #40
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    RazorWire-
    I heard from a reliable source of a BG being shot 6 or more times (probably dead on 1st)
    I have a VHS tape titled "Deadly Effects; what bullets do to bodies" (highly recommended to all who carry) in which they show the body of a BG shot 27 times with 9mm and 4 with 12 ga. slugs (one clearly exiting between the shoulder blades taking out the spine and the one that probably put him down) and don't forget the BG in the Miami FBI shoot out that did most of the killing took a "non-survivable" hit in the opening seconds of the fight, yet went on killing agents for several minutes. I do not expect a single shot, or even a couple shots to do the trick, I am of the mind set to shoot till he hits the ground, multiple attackers get tricky, double taps all round, then hit anyone still vertical again??

    Also remember; what you know before an incident is admitable in court, so something like “Deadly Effects” can be used to explain to a jury why you used multiple shots in a defensive shooting.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Cool Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by F350
    RazorWire-


    I have a VHS tape titled "Deadly Effects; what bullets do to bodies" (highly recommended to all who carry) in which they show the body of a BG shot 27 times with 9mm and 4 with 12 ga. slugs (one clearly exiting between the shoulder blades taking out the spine and the one that probably put him down) and don't forget the BG in the Miami FBI shoot out that did most of the killing took a "non-survivable" hit in the opening seconds of the fight, yet went on killing agents for several minutes. I do not expect a single shot, or even a couple shots to do the trick, I am of the mind set to shoot till he hits the ground, multiple attackers get tricky, double taps all round, then hit anyone still vertical again??

    Also remember; what you know before an incident is admitable in court, so something like “Deadly Effects” can be used to explain to a jury why you used multiple shots in a defensive shooting.
    Yeah, I have a similar video: Surviving Edged Weapons used by several PD's up north as a certified training video, thereby making it admissable as evidence in court. I make all my CCW students view it and sign that they have viewed it so that it's admissable for them as well.

    "DOUBLE TAP" is a Hollywood term. There are two kinds of paired shots. One is a very fast pair using the first sight picture taken. That's called a HAMMER and the other is two quick but individually sighted shots, called a Controlled Pair. HAMMERS are fine if you're facing only ONE BG. But the latest tactical doctrine calls for a single shot to every BG before you return and give anybody a second look. Think of it as a lesson in politeness: Everybody get's "firsts" before anybody gets "seconds!" The reason for this is that while you're pumping a sixth shot into a third suspect, suspect number four has time to plug you pretty good.

    I think the newest technique in vogue is the "HEAD SHOT" as practiced by the Brits on possible terrorists or possibly unarmed folks they happen to be chasing. The problem with that is that MOST stateside street cops can't shoot worth a DAMN. Next, the head just isn't a viable target for a one shot kill. Suppose you hit the BG in the JAW or a cheekbone? He'll be pi$$ed off enough to still return fire AND detonate the explosives he might be carrying. The only true viable shots are to the forehead or "cranial vault" or the cranio-ocular shot meaning right thru an eye. That's going to take a LOT of practice, especially if the shot is tried after a SPRINT. I'm talking thousands of rounds a month to get that level of expertise. I think I heard that the Navy SEALs run through about 4,000 rounds a month in handgun ammo alone for their skill levels. The cops can expect no less. It's got to be realistic, too. That means sprinting so the body is agonizing for air and adrenalin is coursing through the veins. I'm thinking the police won't want to spend the money on ammo or risk the inevitable lawsuits that will result when their officer misses the killing head shot and takes out the little kid down the block.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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