Bad Guys And Body Armor

Bad Guys And Body Armor

This is a discussion on Bad Guys And Body Armor within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Since the very latest in Bad Guy Sniper Fashion seems to be a high cap assault type weapon...& the STRONG likelihood to accessorize with a ...

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Thread: Bad Guys And Body Armor

  1. #1
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    Question Bad Guys And Body Armor

    Since the very latest in Bad Guy Sniper Fashion seems to be a high cap assault type weapon...& the STRONG likelihood to accessorize with a BPV ~ Should we now forget the initial C.O.M. shots & possibly opt for a fast triad of head shots first?
    That would make far more sense to me since Body Armor On Bad Guys is so much more common these days than ever before!
    In a defensive situation I sure would hate to even waste one precious second on initial or first Center Of Mass hits that are TOTALLY WASTED into Level III (or higher) Body Armor.
    What do you all think?
    Of course any and all comments are always welcome.
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    This is exactly why the "Failure to Stop" drill was invented. IOW: Two to the chest (pause--check) and one to the head makes CERTAIN they're DEAD.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Member Array 1Zach1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Should we now forget the initial C.O.M. shots & possibly opt for a fast triad of head shots first?
    No, if COM shots aren't working, and you believe you have enough skill, than go for head shots, if not, follow a line down from COM to be private areas of shots.(that’s a zipper drill or something right?)

    In a defensive situation I sure would hate to even waste one precious second on initial or first Center Of Mass hits that are TOTALLY WASTED into Level III (or higher) Body Armor.
    Not completely wastes, a hit is a hit, just because it doesn't penetrate the armor, doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, and may put the shoot off balance, or at least distract him in some form.

    Those are just my thoughts on the subject.
    Last edited by 1Zach1; March 16th, 2005 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Spelling
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    Member Array 1Zach1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    (pause--check) .
    Would you really want to pause? I mean, there is a guy with a gun shooting at you, if he isn't falling ,why not just keep shooting?
    "Its better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it"
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  5. #5
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    I would still go for the initial COM double. Most of us have trained for the failure to stop drill. Even with body armor I think it is still the best option to use. As many LEO's will attest when hit COM with body armor it can be very a very painful experience, two or even four rounds to COM will give you time to carefully sight for the head shot.

    Legally speaking if the BG is not wearing a vest and you opt for the head shot first it will not go well in front of a jury.

    I hate to think that anything is overkill, but a trio of headshots would certainly fall into this category. Not to mention the fact that you and the BG are moving, one head shot can be difficult, two or more in quick succession is almost impossible under combat conditions.

    As always your best option is to seek hard cover either before or during your engaging the BG.

    Of course this is all just an opinion. I have never had to fire on someone wearing body armor so I have no personal experience to draw on.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

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  6. #6
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    Exclamation Failure to Stop is NOT the "Mozambique!"

    Quote Originally Posted by acparmed
    I would still go for the initial COM double. Most of us have trained for the failure to stop drill. Even with body armor I think it is still the best option to use. As many LEO's will attest when hit COM with body armor it can be very a very painful experience, two or even four rounds to COM will give you time to carefully sight for the head shot.

    Legally speaking if the BG is not wearing a vest and you opt for the head shot first it will not go well in front of a jury.

    I hate to think that anything is overkill, but a trio of headshots would certainly fall into this category. Not to mention the fact that you and the BG are moving, one head shot can be difficult, two or more in quick succession is almost impossible under combat conditions.

    As always your best option is to seek hard cover either before or during your engaging the BG.

    Of course this is all just an opinion. I have never had to fire on someone wearing body armor so I have no personal experience to draw on.
    IMHO, the "pause" makes all the difference in the world. The "mozambique" is something dreamed up by Cooper or maybe just reported by him as a result of combat actions in Africa where the two COM and one to the head follow 1-2-3 with the head shot being simply a finish to the kill. I agree that cops should use the failure to stop for reasons of liability and professionalism. I'm a civilian and believe you me, IF I'm shooting at a guy with body armor, I'm breaking contact to get to a place of good solid cover! Especially if I'm with my family! Their safety is my #1 responsibility and I am too old to play Dick Freakin' Tracy when there are pros bound to be onhand very soon.

    OTOH, I remember the famous LA shootout. Those cops were maintaining a blind allegiance to COM either because they couldn't get a clear angle on a head shot or they couldn't MAKE a head shot. One BG actually offed himself when it became obvious he was going to get caught. I remember the stories of cops running into gun stores after AR15's! Me, I'd jog into a gun store and get a .30-30 lever action and a box of 170gr silvertip and take up a good supported position and breathe very slowly. Let the breath half way out, steady the sight picture and squeeze.....I think cops would be much better served by a Winchester M94 than an M4 or whatever whizbang copy of the army gear they want....
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    We worked on some of these today with multiple targets....while moving it is quite difficult to get good head shots. I dont believe in shooting doubles and assessing...I train to put a few more rounds quickly into BG and if he's still not down Im going for the head. As I said...we worked on these today and got to the point of getting decent shots in a quick amount of time. Now...that being said..the targets are NOT moving as a rifle toting BG may be. This will elevate the difficulty level tremendously as you should be moving as well. Stationary targets are easy to hit.....dont be one.

    Start traing with waterguns with your buddy and have him attack you from 5-12 feet...shoot and move...shoot and move...its good fun and will open your eyes to what you are missing on a static range punching paper.
    Brad B.

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    QKShooter,

    Good post btw...
    Brad B.

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    In the academy they showed us a whole photo album of photographs of officers that had been hit with various rounds in their ballistic vest. The bruising is ungodly. Even relatively small rounds put a hell of a bruise (the size of an orange) and would break ribs. In Phoenix, and I expect in areas like Las Vegas, many of the police do not wear their ballistic vests with the trauma plate (in a vest pocket centered over the heart) because of the heat. One officer told me it was like having a toaster oven strapped to his chest all day. I doubt the bad guys that would wear a vest would use the plate, either. I believe a COM in the breastbone would very likely stop your heart.

    Most ballistic vests dip a bit in the front for ease of movement. The Second Chance I wore in Denver had a "V" neck. I would opt for COM, COM, centered between the collar bones, head. In that order. A pause to assess would allow you to, as acparmed said, take careful aim for the head if needed and keep you from getting raked over the coals in court, IMHO.
    Bumper
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  10. #10
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    Is it obvious when a person is wearing body armor? I've never seen it up close.
    Trying to hit a moving head at any longer ranges has to be pretty tough...the recent Texas shoot-out was fought at about 50 yards (if I recall correctly). Would the pelvic girdle or thigh bones be a legitimate target at those distances, or is that asking for WAY more trouble than you would already have on your hands?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team American
    Is it obvious when a person is wearing body armor? I've never seen it up close.
    Trying to hit a moving head at any longer ranges has to be pretty tough...the recent Texas shoot-out was fought at about 50 yards (if I recall correctly). Would the pelvic girdle or thigh bones be a legitimate target at those distances, or is that asking for WAY more trouble than you would already have on your hands?
    You can usually tell if someone is wearing one unless they are wearing something like a winter coat, sweater or something very loose. Some of the heavier ones do have groin coverage but you would be able to detect one of those easily. After a couple of rounds COM into anything but the heaviest vests (which is what they had in Miami) you will have bought yourself time to take a more appropriate and well placed shot in most cases.
    Bumper
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  12. #12
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    Mozambique Technique

    Remember that in this particular situation where we are involved with a spazzed out armed sniper type that is already taking random "every intent to kill" shots at innocent folks.
    All concerns about the possible legal repercussions or "courtroom backlash" of a fatal head shot are moot. Society wants the guy dead.
    Yes, the original Mozambique "Two Quick C.O.M.~ and the One to the Head"....actually, I remember it as "Two To The Chest & One To The Head" ~ and it was never intended to have a time pause or any sort of hesitation/lag before taking the third head shot.
    The head shot was intended to be the finishing shot...The Guarantor Of Certain Death Shot & it was automatically taken even if the BG was already "Dead Standing" and had just not hit the ground yet!
    What was the exact recent scenario with the heroic CHL holder that fired on the sicko BG?
    He had made two handgun body hits on body armor that "failed to stop" & then he lost his own life.
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  13. #13
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    I do not advocate the "Mozambique" in self-defense scenarios involving citizens and CCW's. The two (or four) COM shots will stun and injure your opponent (if he is wearing a vest) that gives you the necessary time to place your head shot. This is what a failure to stop drill is, not an automatic headshot following your COM shots.

    I wasn't there but I imagine that our hero in the courtyard shooting fired his shots and did not move quickly to cover (if there was any available) or did not move after firing his shots. As reported the distance he fired from was 50 yards, (very precise shooting for a handgun), a head shot at this distance is for all practical purposes next to impossible. For a rifle, which the BG had it is an easy shot for any body part, unless your target is moving laterally at a good clip. (Moving to cover), then it would have been very difficult to hit him. From all I have read about this shooting that was his only mistake. He could have still gotten shot, but it would have been much more difficult to have hit him.
    In all my training and experience the COM double tap (which is two controlled, sighted shots in under one second) or the hammer (which is two shots fired at close range in under 1/2 second) is the best option to use to stop an aggressor.
    I teach students to fire this sequence and if a failure to stop is observed follow up with two more COM shots then carefully sight for the headshot.

    Body armor is not the only occasion you can experience a failure to stop, some drugs can have the same effect as the BG wearing body armor. Cocaine and Methamphetamines will pump up the central nervous system so high that as long as there is blood in the body to pump, or a heart to pump it, the BG will keep coming, and a failure to stop drill will be necessary to put him down.

    The use of pelvic area shots is to put an opponent on the ground, they work best when the BG has a knife or club of some sort, (any edged or blunt force weapon), and he has not stopped his approach to you. Two shots to the pelvic area will, hopefully, break the pelvic bone and he will lack the supporting skeletal structure to remain standing or moving. It will not stop an individual who has a firearm, he will still be able to shoot you.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
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  14. #14
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    apcarmed

    Great Reply!....as usual.
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Yes, the original Mozambique "Two Quick C.O.M.~ and the One to the Head"....actually, I remember it as "Two To The Chest & One To The Head" ~ and it was never intended to have a time pause or any sort of hesitation/lag before taking the third head shot.
    The head shot was intended to be the finishing shot...The Guarantor Of Certain Death Shot & it was automatically taken even if the BG was already "Dead Standing" and had just not hit the ground yet!
    What was the exact recent scenario with the heroic CHL holder that fired on the sicko BG?
    He had made two handgun body hits on body armor that "failed to stop" & then he lost his own life.
    Read my post #6...that is EXACTLY what I said!

    As for head shots being difficult to make unless you are qualifying it with handgun and iron sights over 20 meters, there are a whole bunch of varmit hunters and silohuette shooters out there who would disagree. I know varmit hunters who make shots on groundhogs not much bigger than a man's head at 300+ yards. That's why I made the comment about LA and a lever action .30-30
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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