Multiple BG's

This is a discussion on Multiple BG's within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've seen plenty of ways this has been proposed with single assailants. Can't recall one recently about this: You have to run up to the ...

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Thread: Multiple BG's

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Multiple BG's

    I've seen plenty of ways this has been proposed with single assailants. Can't recall one recently about this:

    You have to run up to the local gas station for <insert item purchasable inside only>. It's late in the evening. You head into the rear of the store to browse quickly for some item. Keeping up your scan, you notice a call roll up outside and two masked people jump out and run into the store. One carries a small shotgun and the other a small semi-auto. The obligitory "Empty the register!" comes from the one with the shotgun while the other looks around the store.

    A) What are your actions upon seeing them run into the store?

    B) Assume you were spotted immeadiately and the one with the handgun moves toward you first. What now?

    C) What if the store is somewhat crowded(6-7 patrons)?

    D) What if it is just you and another customer and the other patron in the store draws a weapon? What if the patron does so and identifies himself as a police officer (plainclothes or off-duty)?
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    I'll play:

    A)Hide if I can, somewhere they can't get behind me. Weapon out, covering the approach.

    B)If I can duck behind cover and draw and cover the approach. He may have spotted me, but will probably be cocky and be surprised that I'm armed. He approaches, he goes down. His buddy will probably bug out or just think his cohort fired. Is there a back door I can use now? If I can't duck behind somthing to begin with, then I play along until they leave/shooting starts.

    C)Bummer...or not. This may give me time to get out the back door. Let me be clear, I don't start shooting over the contents of the register. But, If they seem strung out, or fire rounds at the ceiling, then they've clearly telegraphed that they need to eat lead.

    Shooting in a crowded place is probably best done with the BG distracted by other patrons. Then I can take the time to use the sights and put hem down quick and by suprise.

    D)If the other guy is a cop and hasn't yet confronted the BGs, I'd probably show him my holstered gun and indicate that I'd have his back. If he is joe ccw, I'd still just hide until the shooting starts. I'm not going commando with a guy I don't know if I can help it.
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    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    The first thing I would do is get down out of sight if the BG have not seen me. I would not pull a gun unless the clerks life was in danger. I would get any information that would identify the BGs. These type of robberys are usualy fast. In this case I am out gunned and out numbered.
    If there were multable customers in the store I still would not pull a gun for fear of starting a shoot out and possibilty wounding or killing one or more of the customers.
    If there were another customer and I and the guy was a LEO and pulled a gun I would assist him without pulling a gun the best i could. My gun would not come into play unless it was absolutely necessary. I would be afraid the LEO might shoot me by accident.

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    A) What are your actions upon seeing them run into the store?
    Try to stay inconspicuous and look for a way out. If I can find one, then I'm out of there. Otherwise, stay hidden and possibly draw my pistol. However, I won't use it unless the BGs present a direct threat to me or they start shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    B) Assume you were spotted immeadiately and the one with the handgun moves toward you first. What now?
    I'd move to try and put something between me and him (an aisle of shelves would do nicely) to conceal my draw. If he threatens me with deadly force, that would probably trigger a response on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    C) What if the store is somewhat crowded(6-7 patrons)?
    Same as A, above, though I'd be less likely to draw since the reaction of other customers could draw attention to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    D) What if it is just you and another customer and the other patron in the store draws a weapon? What if the patron does so and identifies himself as a police officer (plainclothes or off-duty)?
    Definitely not drawing in this circumstance, even if a gunfight ensues (don't want the officer thinking I'm part of the robbery crew). If the officer is incapacitated then I'd probably engage the BGs (killing a police officer is a capital offense in most states, at that point I'm going to assume that they'll be willing to eliminate any witnesses).

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array Dakotaranger's Avatar
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    If they have the guns drawn as they rush the door it seams like the best bet find cover behind a shelf and shoot the first guy as he hits the door. It will do two things shifting momentum and the whole attack bottlenecks at the door.

    Not perfect and they may be legal ramafications. I'm going to have to polish the approach through out the night.
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  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakotaranger View Post
    If they have the guns drawn as they rush the door it seams like the best bet find cover behind a shelf and shoot the first guy as he hits the door..
    If I see a masked may with a SHOTGUN running into a building from which I have no immediate, easy, escape, I F****** WELL fear for my life! Hard to say, but I'm inclined to agree, shoot when the first one crosses the threshold.

    D) What if it is just you and another customer and the other patron in the store draws a weapon? What if the patron does so and identifies himself as a police officer (plainclothes or off-duty)?
    Given that there are two BGs, and one with a SG, I would identify myself as "something", and sort it out with the nice Deputy later. If they shoot him, they'll be on a roll, and happy to take anyone else, at that point.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array briansmech's Avatar
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    cell phone - pic's if easy, but theyre masked, so more likely a waste of time in this situation. 911 and stash it on a shelf til its over first and foremost.

    be as inconspicuous as possible.... i am no threat, let me just move to the back of the store, but avoid big glass coolers to my back, maybe. usually an exit or passage to exit near restrooms.
    im not leaving, but im leaving the option open.

    go for shotgun boy first, if practical and shots have to be traded. first and foremost, gauge clerks reaction - he/she will probably be the catalyst if the BGs only intended a quick cash and go. if one bg is watching their escape route and seems to be ina hurry, and everyone else is pretty calm and cooperative, relatively speaking, maybe it'll end quickly with just a little loss of income for the gas station, and i can go home without airing out anything. the last thing you want is for someone to be able to assume after the fact that YOU caused the situation to break down into violence, as absurd as that may seem at the time. if they fire into the ceiling, then you're pretty safe in assuming they arent pulling an airsoft extortion, and the safety can come off. otherwise, be very, very careful about firing the first shot. you likely will be painted as a hindrance, rather than a help, regardless of the outcome. words that should make a lump in your throat here: judgement call, depending on demeanor and verbal and body language.

    if someone starts freaking out, and BG's fingers are twitchin inside the trigger guards, watch for clear firing lanes, try to establish second fire lane covering their egress, already have means of egress established for yourself, check for camera's for future reference. set yourself and try to prevent cashier or innocent from buying it. be ready, but likely keep weapon holster unless circumstances are such you can draw and bead without notice from either BG's, OR other patrons. i dont like gambling on others reactions to seeing a gun, ya know?

    if another patron draws a weapon, for whatever, off duty LE or more zealous permit owner, then im just in observance/escape mode unless clear opportunity presents itself. i dont brandish my weapon at them, assuming they'll understand im on the right side. i make no assumptions, and i doubt communication is practical or possible. i hope they have a plan and dont have any need for me. i'll just stick around to corraborate their story, ideally. i dont even know what my OWN reaction would be if during shots fired, i find someone behind me armed and shooting past me, over me, or otherwise, basically AT me in the heat and adrenaline...

    it'd be nice, maybe we take cover behind something together and get the opportunity, but i normally keep space between myself and ANYBODY else.

    as soon as practical, put away the weapon and see about getting home....

  9. #8
    Distinguished Member Array ArmyCop's Avatar
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    Talking

    Get mad with them - shout out - "Hey, I'm robbin this place, It's mine - You go rob someone else!!"
    For God, Family and Country!

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyCop View Post
    Get mad with them - shout out - "Hey, I'm robbin this place, It's mine - You go rob someone else!!"
    I knew a couple of guys in the TN State system that would probably have worked on!

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    Unless the other patron of the store is LEO, then he's a possible threat. he might be there WITH the other two. Unless it's someone I know, he doesn't get near me either.
    Shotgun boy gets the first shot if he's advancing on my position. Pistol boy(s) are next if they pose a threat.
    Either way if I'm alone I'm trying to dig through a wall bare handed to get out BEFORE I start shooting.
    IF my wife is with me, then she gets my .380 and we try to get out before we're noticed. If it comes to it, hunker down behind something solid and work on shot placement.

  12. #11
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    I Want No Part Of This...

    I'm not a cop, and I DO want to return home...
    I'm going to try an get out the back...that could also turn on an alarm...a help!

    If a BG comes towards me with a weapon, and I cannot exit...what choice do I have?...he's going down, but I'll remain hidden, and hopefully all is on tape.

    I'm not going to save a 'cash register', but if shooting starts, I'll protect my space and make sure that the clerk knows I'm a good guy!

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  13. #12
    Member Array DizTbone's Avatar
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    E & E, if possible. Unless there's something at stake that an insurance company can't indemnify, the paperwork (and a bunch of other stuff) isn't worth it.

    Multiple BG's are bad enough if they aren't armed... I practice, but I'm no Super Trooper...and I don't have a need to be a hero. I do have a STRONG desire for everyone to go home and be alive to decompress from the stress.

    As for the armed and unidentified individual making a move....and E & E is not an option......cover, conceal, get small in my hole....and remain very alert......and ready....

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    Member Array kikr's Avatar
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    Instead of trying to give you a direct answer let me give you the formula I use when evaluating situations.

    The Army uses the formula METT-TC: Mission, Equipment, Terrain, Time, Troops, and Civilians on the battlefield.

    What is your mission in this situation, intervention, escape, survival, protection of others.

    What Equipment do you have available, is it sufficient for the task, what equipment does the BG(s) have.

    What is the terrain in your location? Cover and concealment, barricades, avenues of approach and escape, lanes of fire. Where are the doors, where are other people in relation to your direction of fire. Where are all the bad guys in relation to you?

    Time is two fold...clock time, is the store crowded, is it after school with lots of children around, is it during rush hour where it'll take public service longer to respond. Real time, How much time do you have to respond, how long will it take you to secure the scene. Will it be quicker for you to escape or engage? How long will you be exposed to fire if you have to move?

    Troops- do you have someone you can rely on for assistance. Are you outnumbered? Can you identify all the players? Can all the players identify you?

    Civilians on the battlefield- Are bystanders in danger, will you be endangering bystanders unnecessarily, and are there people in the area that you are responsible for, either at your location or further away.

    By answering these questions you can develop your tactical response to any situation. The more questions you can ask in each category and give an intelligent response to the more sound your tactics will be. There is no "one size fits all" tactic, you have to be fluid and dynamic and allow flexibility for changes that will happen.

    Hope this helps. Stay safe.
    We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
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  15. #14
    Member Array Arkhangel's Avatar
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    I'm with Ret! +1 :)

    SY

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