This is a discussion on Thief in the car within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Garg You obviously don't live in Ohio. At the current time I am obligated to leave my house via the backdoor rather ...
Last edited by Smith&Wessonfan; April 15th, 2007 at 02:20 PM.
This, even joking, brings up an interesting question.
If you call 911 and request an ambulance, but you have not yet shot the intruder/attacker/rapist/BG, won't it look bad for you if you do end up shooting him? Like you decided to do so no matter what?
It might make a good line to the BG, to make him want to surrender and comply, but it could spell p-r-e-m-e-d-i-t-a-t-i-o-n in a court . . .
Every scumbag we "let go" is one who:
a) probably has been committing crimes already
b) probably will keep committing crimes against other innocent victims on into the future
Sure, it might be expeditious for US to let someone go (as in, not having to bother with reports, and certainly not having to explain or defend having shot him), but there is an overall cost to ALL of us by continuing to let them just run off with their meaningless "apology."
I agree with the folks who said that you are well within your right to approach your own property as someone is attempting to steal it and challenge him or demand that he cease.
There is no reason to say that we can't do something like that simply because we also are armed.
As long as you don't bring your gun into play until and unless the BG demonstrates that he is a physical threat to you (statements, advancing, displaying a weapon of his own), what is the problem? And then if he does make himself a threat, you draw and prepare. If he continues to threaten, you may well be justified in firing.
The NRA Guide to Personal Protection Outside the Home states that the criminal has three options:
- continue to attack, and risk being shot by you
I hold with those who say to call police prior to or while cautiously confronting, and be prepared to modify your course depending on how the BG reacts. That even includes being prepared to run away, yourself, if that ends up being the most prudent thing.
But I do believe strongly that standing back in the house and calling police who will arrive who-knows-how-much-later is really just giving the BG the time to finish taking what's yours. It's time to take the power back.
I know the make and model of my car. I know my license plate number. I even know the VIN number. My car is not worth a life.
I also don't know what is going to be happen if I approach. My approaching may up a simple robbery to a shoot out. Not worth it.
I'll get ready to draw with my hand on gun (just in case the thief sees me and decides HE wants to approach me), I will call the police and start reporting... "I am located at.." blah, blah, blah. "There is a strange man in my Navy Blue Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo, Plate number..." blah, blah, blah... "The guy is a white male, wearing..." blah, blah, blah, blah. "I am armed and observing from..." such and such a location. "He's leaving, heading..." North, South, East or West....
If he wants my febreeze, swiffer dusters and pennies in my change jar, he can have them. I'm not going to live with the guilt of possibly having to shoot someone (or getting hurt myself) because of my car or anything in it...
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
Well, when we return to the notion that even the life of an evil, cancerous growth on society is held as sacred, I depart from the groupthink. I just don't see it that way.
I do not ever lament the loss of such a "life." Everyone is free to see this as a case of equating pennies and Swiffers with the life of a human being if they want, but that is not how I see it. I see it as good people either standing up to evil ones, or knuckling under and rationalizing their refusal to act decisively by saying, "It was just 'stuff.'" I tend to suspect (not necessarily in your case, Limatunes; this is not personally directed at you) that most of society's rationalizing the sacredness of human life (when talking about BGs) arises from their need to excuse why they were afraid to fight for themselves and for what is right.
I see a much larger picture than the "just stuff" argument. I see criminals encouraged by the inaction of their victims beyond calling the police. I see a culture of victimhood and a widespread sense that those who will actively oppose criminality are radical, extreme, dangerous, psychotic, hate-filled, etc.
All I want is to not be attacked and not be stolen from. When an evil victimizer is purged from humanity, I call it a +1 for humanity. And I will avoid confrontation but at the same time I will not just stand there and watch someone take what's mine because I value his LIFE. He's a scumbag criminal. I do NOT value his life. I will abide by the law and fight him only when it is necessary and justified, but I will cerainly not hide away from him and then tell myself that this was about the relative values of life or CDs and stereos and whatever other junk is in my car. This is about allowing people to continue to be parasites on society, or fighting to oppose them.
One thing age has taught me it's a rare case a theif deserves a break.
I would have a least called the cops.Think about all the other victims
this guys stolen from.
I have felt the same righteous indignation when people say they would not step in and help someone who was being abducted or threatened.
The line I draw in the sand is clearly (for me) between a life and 'stuff.'
Would I mourn if a car thief was later gunned down in a shoot-out with another, more (shall I say...) aggressive motorist who he had the misfortune of trying to steal from? No.
He should have thought twice before he started thievery as a living instead of doing what the rest of us do and finishing high-school and going to college and getting a job and striving to be honest. He has no one to blame but himself for his loss of freedom or even his life should be be stopped by legal or lethal force. I don't make excuses for petty criminals, but I'm not going to rush to confront them and possibly escalate the situation because of it.
If he confronted me, threatened me.. Yeah, he'd meet the firing end of my .40 because his life is certainly not worth mine, but my 'stuff' isn't worth his life either (at least not in my mind).
For me to step into a situation it would require the potential of harm to myself or to another person.
I already know that should I be forced to fire my weapon at another human being it's going to be a traumatic event. If I kill someone, that will remain on my conscience forever. I think if I were to ever do it for anything less than the defense of a human being (myself included, of course) that every time I thought about the event, I would look back and say, "My GOD, what did I do? It was just a car. I killed a man over a car!" Or worse yet, "I killed a man over a measly fifty cents in my change tray!"
Some people may be able to justify that. I don't think I ever could. Would I mourn his death by someone else's hand? No. But I would mourn his death were I forced to live with it on my conscience, knowing it could have been avoided.
I really don't have a beef with people who say they would step up to protect their property. By all means, it's their property, they have a right to defend it. I just, personally, don't think it's worth it.
I understand. We're just discussing viewpoints.(not necessarily in your case, Limatunes; this is not personally directed at you)
The other thing to consider is that when you confront him you dramatically increase the odds that you will end up having to shoot him. But why would you have to shoot him? Because he has presented you with a lethal threat. That means you have also dramatically increased the odds that YOU will get shot! You are much safer in your house calling the cops than you are on the street confronting the bad guy--there is simply no way around that plain and incontrovertible fact.
So, it is not really a question of whether your "stuff" is worth his life. It is a question of whether your "stuff" is worth YOUR life! My "stuff" is definitely NOT worth my life! That means that I am absolutely NOT going to initiate a confrontation unless I am completely certain that I can do so in a controlled and safe manner, probably from cover, with virtually NO chance that by doing so I am increasing my own risk of injury or death. Most of the time I am not going to be able to be that completely in control of the situation, so most of the time I will stay in the house and call the police.
I guess I am an average sized guy and I drive an Escort. So I believe the perp will feel bad for me and leave change in the cup holder instead, LOL :-)
But seriously, call 911 as it is happening, seek cover so he won't see me. A '94 Escort is not worth fighting for, as long as the engine turns on, thats all I care.
Personally I think it's a bit rediculous to go Dirty Harry on some guy in a situation like this. First, GG has the option of not engaging and there is a likelihood that the BG will not get caught. Second, engaging by calling police but not showing oneself is likely to be the best way to catch or confront BG. Three, regardless of the state you live in...if described as above and you wind up killing the guy regardless of what he does you'll probably go through court hell, spend tons on money if not go bankrupt defending yourself and you might even go to jail or like many many people in a shooting situation "miss" the BG and who knows where these rounds end up.
We don't live in country where you can go vigilate on someone without huge concequences. Remember that guy who got sued to high heaven for swearing while he was rafting in front of kids.
People can get damage claims for anything. Even if you shot him and it was 100% legit you could still get sued by someone who watched it 200 yards away.
Don't be a dumb ass and ruin your life over some scumbag and his meth habit. Unless someone is actively trying to kill or seriously hurt you don't do anything to increase the likelyhood of them doing so.
I would have called the police if possible.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. "
John Stuart Mill