Hypothetical Nightmare Virginia Tech Tactical Scenario....
This is a discussion on Hypothetical Nightmare Virginia Tech Tactical Scenario.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by aypanthony
I guess the problem that I have is, most of my training doesn't involve handling a cell phone at the same ...
April 17th, 2007 09:11 PM
I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.
April 17th, 2007 09:11 PM
April 17th, 2007 09:33 PM
I Was Thinking The Same...But...
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
April 17th, 2007 09:35 PM
Well since I am allowed to carry in your scenario, I would have my M6X as well as my HK USP with the evil Aquila dutch loaded as I do now, so it would be wait behind a very large teacher's desk as he headed toward our room I would yell "Please do not come in here" just to be sure he did. When he enters the room it is red dot him and Mozambique drill time.
"The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century
April 17th, 2007 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Rob72
I kind of need to disagree here, there are plenty of times when I've done a quick assessment of an emergency, then called for more resources (standard protocol for any mass casaulty incident).
I will say that my first reaction would be to move to the most defensable position I can find, have my gun in had, announce to my classmates to be quiet and stay as out of the line of fire as possible, and that I'd try to protect them. Once the entrance is covered, then I'd hopefully have someone else call, so I can focus. If I were alone for some reason, Yes, I'd call for help myself. The threat may not even be coming to the room I'm in, but PD need to be called.
Once help is on the way, I might peek my head out to see if I can ID the shooter. Particularly if it sounds like he is getting further away and his back might be to me? Now thats the shot I want to take, when he's not shooting back. No running down halls hunting though, just defend the best I can.
Definately get help on the way, somehow.
April 17th, 2007 10:54 PM
Ok here it is for me.
If he starts shooting in front of me SO DO I.
If I am in a classroom (Using most classrooms from my experience [single door]) I start giving orders, Everyone to the corner out of view from the door, make sure my classmates know I am a GG. Draw, clear the hall if possible to allow door to be locked, Contact 911 give a size up report, I have spent 6 years as an EMT and Firefighter 2 of those Fire LT, I have reporting structures ingrained and could give them in my sleep. Retreat to with others staying out front of them and covering door. If he comes in GOOD NIGHT.
Perfect no but, my class is safe as am I.
"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."
-James Earl Jones
April 18th, 2007 05:54 AM
Well, then...given the fairly high number of CHLs in my county, I think I'm going to duck and hope the crossfire misses me.
Originally Posted by aypanthony
Classrooms are a tactical nightmare.
April 18th, 2007 06:14 AM
The best bet if you and a second person is armed is to get others out of the line of fire and either baracade or wait for the bg to come in. He's not going to get both of you. I'm not a hero, don't really want to die, but I'm too fat and old to run.
"[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
They are left in full possession of them."
Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
April 18th, 2007 10:59 AM
I think Limatunes has it pretty good. If you are in a room...hole up, call the calvary and wait. If the perp comes in....ventilate him (I don't think you will have much problem ID'ing him). If you are in the hall and see him comming you engage and GET OFF THE X!!!!!!!!
Its pretty clear from past engagements that once these idiots are challeneged things end pretty quickly - ususally with a self-inflicted bullet.
April 18th, 2007 11:13 AM
I am with Limatunes on this one. Unless the shooter is visible to me, I would secure the room I am in and either call it in myself or have someone in the room call it in. One of the problems I see with going out in search of the shooter is what happens when you haven't heard any shots for say twenty seconds and come around a corner and are facing another person with a drawn weapon? Is that the shooter or another CCW or an off duty officer? He tells you to drop the gun. What do you do?
April 18th, 2007 11:14 AM
In context, I agree, BTDT. OTOH, you won't be allowed on-scene in a MC incident (shooting) until secured by LE, if you're on-duty, right? In this situation we're on the inside.
Originally Posted by LBrombach
The purpose for my emphasis is not to belittle 911, but to encourage multipathway thinking.
You know about decision tress- if "X", then "Y". If we start every scenario with, "call 911, and identify myself....", guess what- that will be our default mode. I've seen students do the same thing in a survey- the ABCs are fine, so they continue, then find an injury..........and don't survey further. Bad practice, and I'm sure you know that. I've also seen students start a scene survey with, "Call 911...." Uhm, dude, we are 911........
For folks that don't have that frame of reference, I'm saying, get some exposure. Do ride-alongs, learn how your Public Servants communicate, how they prioritize,etc., etc.. Things that seem important to the A/C repairman, the sales agent, the realtor, may be irrelevant, tangenital, concerns, or may be critically out of sequence in a "survival-pathway".
Also, reagrdless of what we think, cells and Bluetooths are not radios. Cops, supposedly trained to properly prioritize in the field have been beaten and stabbed, because they stopped to answer a phone, while restraining a suspect. Societally, we have an unhealthy "respect" for cellular communication. I'm not saying don't use it, just be aware that the cell has a tendancy, for whatever reason, to shut down all situational awareness in those using the service. Even in extreme duress.
Try this: next time you are out with a friend/SO/whatever,in public, and you receive or make a cell call, have your companion ask you to describe 3 characteristics of at least two people that walked past, while you were on the phone. Most people will only be able to describe 1 feature of possibly two seperate people. Few to none will have a general idea of the number of people passing, or even race (the easiest characteristic to notice, since we naturally orient to faces and hands.) If you can't say much.......it may be time to discipline your phone-awareness skills.
April 18th, 2007 02:18 PM
OK Rob, were not on completely different pages here, and you're definately right about the student who only memorizes flow charts, instead of thinking out the CURRENT problem. I guess I just don't think that way, as you and I both know that it is the RARE emergency call that is textbook, I tend to think situations out individually. It is NOT ALWAYS best to get on the phone for help right away, but sometimes it is. Training yourself to always go for the phone is a bad idea.
Originally Posted by Rob72
However, on or off duty, if you don't have the resources to handle a situation, then a call for backup needs to be made as soon as it is relatively safe to do so. A cop isn't on the radio while shooting, but he is if he just heard shots and is on his way to investigate. In this scenario, we have no idea idea if there is one bad guy or a platoon of terrorists coming in like in Beslan, Russia. Based just on hearing shots and screams, I'm going to err on getting more firepower in asap. Just like assuming that the first injury you find is the only one, It'd be terrible to train yourself to think that the first badguy is the only one.
Stay safe out there,
April 18th, 2007 02:27 PM
The problem I am wrestling with is:
When you are in the room with a bunch of other people, you have to take the time to explain yourself as a legally armed civilian--hoping that they believe you. Then call 911 to explain the situation. All this is time that you may or may not have in this instance.
After thinking about it, I am now leaning towards keeping the weapon holstered, not making my weapon known to anyone and concentrating on finding a defensible position to fire on at a moments notice----no cell phones, no explanations to people that I am a good guy.....Then just wait until the situation has ended.
"...Far better it is to dare mighty things....than to take rank with those poor spirits who...knows not victory nor defeat." Theordore Roosevelt
April 19th, 2007 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by aypanthony
Wait until perp shoots a few rounds into blocked door. When he sticks his head through crack. Well you know........
Actually very good thinking. Lots of stuf in play there. It is not always as simple as you think.
April 20th, 2007 05:10 AM
what i would do as a student or teacher (SWAT Officers View)
1. if i had a CW permit as a student or teacher
i would definitly pull out my weapon as soon as i came to the realization that there was a shooting(screaming, yelling, panic)........ while pulling it out i would tell the class i was licensed to carry a gun and tell everyone to get to the back of the room. i would then approach the the wall the door was on and with my gun pointing towards the door, move down towards it to look out the window. I'd then try to tell where the gunman exactly was. if i could tell he was in another class occupied with killing people at the time i would try and go take him out.(i could guarentee you he would not be ready for it) If i could not get an exact location of the gunman, i would stay put by the door, so if he were to come into the room, i could take him out. (calling 911 is an obvious thing to do also....but id rather someone else do it that was in my same room)
....... now that is my perspective, a little different from a student or teachers perspective because i am a law enforcement officer who works on SWAT for my city. I have been in numerous situations where my gun has been drawn but all of them have been on duty. i carry a weapon with me while im off duty also but fortunatly have never had to use it.
also....a point id like to make about gun control.....hopefully youll appreciate hearing this from a law enforcement officer....i think CW permits are a second form of law enforcement. Citizens who wish to go through the training and pass certain background checks should be able to buy and carry a gun PERIOD.....
not only do they serve as a self defense weapon they deter crimes. Ive seen it first hand!!!!
CW permits should be honored in the entire united states and their should be no "Gun free zones" because 95 percent of the time it is where these mass shootings occur"
if a student or professor would have had a concealed weapons permit that was in that building, lives could have been saved.without a doubt
April 22nd, 2007 11:08 PM
I wouldn't count on this. In the recent Trolley Square shooting here in Utah, responding officers were on scene and entering the building within 3-4 minutes, while shooting was still going on (they had the benefit of recent active shooter training). That doesn't even count the off-duty officer who was in the mall when the shooting started.
Originally Posted by kpw
As far as my response in a situation like this, if the shooter is in my immediate vicinity, then I'll return fire. If not, look for a good place to hunker down with my weapon drawn, but held somewhat discretely.
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