Hypothetical Nightmare Virginia Tech Tactical Scenario....

This is a discussion on Hypothetical Nightmare Virginia Tech Tactical Scenario.... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by aypanthony I guess the problem that I have is, most of my training doesn't involve handling a cell phone at the same ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aypanthony View Post
    I guess the problem that I have is, most of my training doesn't involve handling a cell phone at the same time as handling a weapon. How do you train for that?

    Blue tooth is a wonderful thing.



    Ok here are my basic principles to an active shooter scenerio.

    1. I am in the immediate firing area - Turn into the ambush and respond with firepower. In an ambush scenerio, that is my best option. I am allready trapped in the killing zone. Turning and looking for cover can often be a fatal mistake. Instead, do what the bad guy(s) is not expecting and give him an instantaneous response of advancing deadly firepower.

    2. I am just outside the immediate firing area - Take the precious yet few seconds to assess and lay an ambush. Being just outside the immediate firing area can still be dangerous and escape may not be a viable option because the firing area could be moving swiftly towards you in an active shooter scenerio. Be prepared to take a longer shot than normal with your pistol. This is why practicing regularly out to 50 yards should be a regular routine. 50 yards in combat is a lot shorter distance than most people realize.

    3. I am outside the firing area - Look to escape and evade, if possible. Otherwise set up a defensible position. Help others ( ) to escape or take cover. This is the only time I see as viable to call 911 and go through the long rehearsed speech (yea right, have you ever tried dealing with a dispatcher before?) of who I am, yadda yadda yadda (sorry Lima, I am not trying dis you. I hope your toe feels better ). If possible I would have one of the call 911 for me, because my primary concern is to still be defending against a BG.

    Thats about the long and the short of it.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

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  3. #17
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    I Was Thinking The Same...But...

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    IF, by some FABULOUS change of events I was allowed to carry on campus, this would be my plan of action...

    First, I'm not going AFTER the perp. That's can be seen by anyone as aggressive behavior and no, I don't know what he looks like and if I'm armed, sure enough there may be other armed individuals. I have a duty, first, to try to escape and help others escape. I'm not running from the room as I don't know what I'm running into.

    I would first call the police while drawing my gun. I would tell everyone in my class that I'm an armed citizen and that I was going to draw a gun and that everyone should get relatively behind me and take as much cover as possible because I do not want to shoot any innocent by standers. I would take out my CCW and hold it as well. When the police answered the phone I would say (loud enough for everyone in my class to hear), "My name is, Limatunes," (names have been changed to protect the innocent) "I am an ARMED CITIZEN on the third floor of building A. There are shots being fired. Again, I am an armed citizen with a CCW permit. I am trapped in this room and from the sound progression, it sounds like the shooting is making his way towards us. I am in Room 312 with 15 other people. I am female, 5' 3" tall, blond hair, blue eyes, 105 lbs. wearing a brown skirt and sweater and a tan shirt. I repeat, I am armed with a handgun and ready to defend myself should the shooter present himself. I understand that the police are on the way. There is NO means of escape. Please notify them that there is an armed citizen in the building. I am holding my concealed weapons permit in my left hand, with my cell phone.."

    I would take as much cover as I could and keep the 911 operator on the line through the entire thing. I would keep repeating my location, my description and whatever I have learned until either a) the threat presented itself, at which point I would fire, b) the police arrived, at which point I would raise my hands FAR over my head, flip on my thumb safety and drop the gun, INSTANTLY. In my left hand I would continue to display my permit. I will probably be cuffed and taken away but at least I'll be alive.

    P.S. I'd probably also put my phone on speaker phone so that I could move around with both hands more effectively and so that the other individuals in the room could hear the 911 operator and so the 911 operator could hear them. It would be VERY important to me not to be seen as a threat from any side.
    My call to police would have the following description...
    "I'm an old, fat, bald 60 year old. I wearing shorts (FL you know) and a T-shirt. I am well armed and sitting with 25 other students. We are in room 202 and will remain here until help arrives. I will only shoot if we are threathened...please hurry! (I like the speaker phone idea!) It would certainly be important to impart the news of your CCW...gently and calmly...to those in the room...
    The will certainly hide benind the sheepdog!

    Stay armed...stay safe!

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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Well since I am allowed to carry in your scenario, I would have my M6X as well as my HK USP with the evil Aquila dutch loaded as I do now, so it would be wait behind a very large teacher's desk as he headed toward our room I would yell "Please do not come in here" just to be sure he did. When he enters the room it is red dot him and Mozambique drill time.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Hint: if you're on the phone, your attention isn't where it needs to be. You take care of business, then make the report. EMS personnel don't talk on the radio while they are shooting, or treating an emergent patient. Learn the lesson there- this isn't CPR, where you call first. If you can call, things aren't emergent, and you aren't in danger.

    Do some ride-alongs with your local LE & EMS, if you can. See how they operate and how they react to peoples' varying demeanors.

    I kind of need to disagree here, there are plenty of times when I've done a quick assessment of an emergency, then called for more resources (standard protocol for any mass casaulty incident).

    I will say that my first reaction would be to move to the most defensable position I can find, have my gun in had, announce to my classmates to be quiet and stay as out of the line of fire as possible, and that I'd try to protect them. Once the entrance is covered, then I'd hopefully have someone else call, so I can focus. If I were alone for some reason, Yes, I'd call for help myself. The threat may not even be coming to the room I'm in, but PD need to be called.

    Once help is on the way, I might peek my head out to see if I can ID the shooter. Particularly if it sounds like he is getting further away and his back might be to me? Now thats the shot I want to take, when he's not shooting back. No running down halls hunting though, just defend the best I can.

    Definately get help on the way, somehow.
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  6. #20
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    Ok here it is for me.

    If he starts shooting in front of me SO DO I.

    If I am in a classroom (Using most classrooms from my experience [single door]) I start giving orders, Everyone to the corner out of view from the door, make sure my classmates know I am a GG. Draw, clear the hall if possible to allow door to be locked, Contact 911 give a size up report, I have spent 6 years as an EMT and Firefighter 2 of those Fire LT, I have reporting structures ingrained and could give them in my sleep. Retreat to with others staying out front of them and covering door. If he comes in GOOD NIGHT.

    Perfect no but, my class is safe as am I.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

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  7. #21
    Member Array kd5nrh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aypanthony View Post


    Assume that CCW is allowed on campus....
    Well, then...given the fairly high number of CHLs in my county, I think I'm going to duck and hope the crossfire misses me.

    Classrooms are a tactical nightmare.

  8. #22
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    The best bet if you and a second person is armed is to get others out of the line of fire and either baracade or wait for the bg to come in. He's not going to get both of you. I'm not a hero, don't really want to die, but I'm too fat and old to run.
    "[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
    They are left in full possession of them."

    Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~Alexander Hamilton

  9. #23
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    I think Limatunes has it pretty good. If you are in a room...hole up, call the calvary and wait. If the perp comes in....ventilate him (I don't think you will have much problem ID'ing him). If you are in the hall and see him comming you engage and GET OFF THE X!!!!!!!!

    Its pretty clear from past engagements that once these idiots are challeneged things end pretty quickly - ususally with a self-inflicted bullet.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I am with Limatunes on this one. Unless the shooter is visible to me, I would secure the room I am in and either call it in myself or have someone in the room call it in. One of the problems I see with going out in search of the shooter is what happens when you haven't heard any shots for say twenty seconds and come around a corner and are facing another person with a drawn weapon? Is that the shooter or another CCW or an off duty officer? He tells you to drop the gun. What do you do?

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LBrombach View Post
    I kind of need to disagree here, there are plenty of times when I've done a quick assessment of an emergency, then called for more resources (standard protocol for any mass casaulty incident).
    In context, I agree, BTDT. OTOH, you won't be allowed on-scene in a MC incident (shooting) until secured by LE, if you're on-duty, right? In this situation we're on the inside.

    The purpose for my emphasis is not to belittle 911, but to encourage multipathway thinking.

    You know about decision tress- if "X", then "Y". If we start every scenario with, "call 911, and identify myself....", guess what- that will be our default mode. I've seen students do the same thing in a survey- the ABCs are fine, so they continue, then find an injury..........and don't survey further. Bad practice, and I'm sure you know that. I've also seen students start a scene survey with, "Call 911...." Uhm, dude, we are 911........

    For folks that don't have that frame of reference, I'm saying, get some exposure. Do ride-alongs, learn how your Public Servants communicate, how they prioritize,etc., etc.. Things that seem important to the A/C repairman, the sales agent, the realtor, may be irrelevant, tangenital, concerns, or may be critically out of sequence in a "survival-pathway".

    Also, reagrdless of what we think, cells and Bluetooths are not radios. Cops, supposedly trained to properly prioritize in the field have been beaten and stabbed, because they stopped to answer a phone, while restraining a suspect. Societally, we have an unhealthy "respect" for cellular communication. I'm not saying don't use it, just be aware that the cell has a tendancy, for whatever reason, to shut down all situational awareness in those using the service. Even in extreme duress.

    Try this: next time you are out with a friend/SO/whatever,in public, and you receive or make a cell call, have your companion ask you to describe 3 characteristics of at least two people that walked past, while you were on the phone. Most people will only be able to describe 1 feature of possibly two seperate people. Few to none will have a general idea of the number of people passing, or even race (the easiest characteristic to notice, since we naturally orient to faces and hands.) If you can't say much.......it may be time to discipline your phone-awareness skills.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    In context, I agree, BTDT. OTOH, you won't be allowed on-scene in a MC incident (shooting) until secured by LE, if you're on-duty, right? In this situation we're on the inside.

    The purpose for my emphasis is not to belittle 911, but to encourage multipathway thinking.

    You know about decision tress- if "X", then "Y". If we start every scenario with, "call 911, and identify myself....", guess what- that will be our default mode. I've seen students do the same thing in a survey- the ABCs are fine, so they continue, then find an injury..........and don't survey further. Bad practice, and I'm sure you know that. I've also seen students start a scene survey with, "Call 911...." Uhm, dude, we are 911........
    OK Rob, were not on completely different pages here, and you're definately right about the student who only memorizes flow charts, instead of thinking out the CURRENT problem. I guess I just don't think that way, as you and I both know that it is the RARE emergency call that is textbook, I tend to think situations out individually. It is NOT ALWAYS best to get on the phone for help right away, but sometimes it is. Training yourself to always go for the phone is a bad idea.

    However, on or off duty, if you don't have the resources to handle a situation, then a call for backup needs to be made as soon as it is relatively safe to do so. A cop isn't on the radio while shooting, but he is if he just heard shots and is on his way to investigate. In this scenario, we have no idea idea if there is one bad guy or a platoon of terrorists coming in like in Beslan, Russia. Based just on hearing shots and screams, I'm going to err on getting more firepower in asap. Just like assuming that the first injury you find is the only one, It'd be terrible to train yourself to think that the first badguy is the only one.


    Stay safe out there,

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  13. #27
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    The problem I am wrestling with is:

    When you are in the room with a bunch of other people, you have to take the time to explain yourself as a legally armed civilian--hoping that they believe you. Then call 911 to explain the situation. All this is time that you may or may not have in this instance.

    After thinking about it, I am now leaning towards keeping the weapon holstered, not making my weapon known to anyone and concentrating on finding a defensible position to fire on at a moments notice----no cell phones, no explanations to people that I am a good guy.....Then just wait until the situation has ended.
    "...Far better it is to dare mighty things....than to take rank with those poor spirits who...knows not victory nor defeat." Theordore Roosevelt

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by aypanthony View Post
    The shooting at VT made me wonder how things would have gone if you were an armed CCW holder in that situation. It is difficult because of the variables involved. Here is the scenario below. Try and choose the best option, and of course, comment.

    Situation:

    1) You and many other students are trapped in a building when the shooting begins. Closed environment. Some doors have been blocked off. No easy routes of escape(jumping out a window is not an option).

    2) Many panicked students and faculty running around and screaming.

    3) Shooter is not easily identified and exact location is unknown.

    4) Police have orders to go in.

    Options vs. drawbacks:

    Option #1: Draw weapon and attempt to engage perp.
    Drawback: You may be mis-identified as perp and fired upon by police and other CCW holder(s) or attacked by other students. You may inadvertantly engage another CCW holder doing the same as you.

    Option #2: Draw weapon, retreat to a corner and wait.
    Drawback: You may be mis-identified as perp and fired upon by police and other CCW holder(s) or attacked by other students. You may inadvertantly engage another CCW holder doing the same as you.

    Option #3: Don't draw weapon, attempt to manuever and evade perp---Hide.
    Drawback: Since perp is not identified, you may not be prepared to engage if forced to.

    Option #4: Don't draw weapon, try to identify and engage perp.
    Drawback: If you find perp, you aren't ready for an engagement. You may mis-identify another CCW holder. Once engaged, you may be mis-identified as perp.

    Option #5: Call 911 with cell phone.
    Drawback: Precious time lost making call. A phone isn't going to help you at that moment. You are on the phone when perp appears.

    Option #6: Play dead.
    Drawback: You may be trampled. You are very ill prepared to engage perp if forced to.

    I am having trouble deciding which option is the best. I would probably choose Option #2, but there are huge risks associated with that decision.

    If anyone has other options than the ones listed above, please feel free to add. What would you choose?

    Wait until perp shoots a few rounds into blocked door. When he sticks his head through crack. Well you know........

    Actually very good thinking. Lots of stuf in play there. It is not always as simple as you think.

  15. #29
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    what i would do as a student or teacher (SWAT Officers View)

    1. if i had a CW permit as a student or teacher

    i would definitly pull out my weapon as soon as i came to the realization that there was a shooting(screaming, yelling, panic)........ while pulling it out i would tell the class i was licensed to carry a gun and tell everyone to get to the back of the room. i would then approach the the wall the door was on and with my gun pointing towards the door, move down towards it to look out the window. I'd then try to tell where the gunman exactly was. if i could tell he was in another class occupied with killing people at the time i would try and go take him out.(i could guarentee you he would not be ready for it) If i could not get an exact location of the gunman, i would stay put by the door, so if he were to come into the room, i could take him out. (calling 911 is an obvious thing to do also....but id rather someone else do it that was in my same room)

    ....... now that is my perspective, a little different from a student or teachers perspective because i am a law enforcement officer who works on SWAT for my city. I have been in numerous situations where my gun has been drawn but all of them have been on duty. i carry a weapon with me while im off duty also but fortunatly have never had to use it.

    also....a point id like to make about gun control.....hopefully youll appreciate hearing this from a law enforcement officer....i think CW permits are a second form of law enforcement. Citizens who wish to go through the training and pass certain background checks should be able to buy and carry a gun PERIOD.....

    not only do they serve as a self defense weapon they deter crimes. Ive seen it first hand!!!!
    CW permits should be honored in the entire united states and their should be no "Gun free zones" because 95 percent of the time it is where these mass shootings occur"

    if a student or professor would have had a concealed weapons permit that was in that building, lives could have been saved.without a doubt

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpw View Post
    They don't usually go in until well after the incident is over. We're not talking about a hostage situation. These situations are generally concluded about the time the first responders arrive or shortly before or after.
    I wouldn't count on this. In the recent Trolley Square shooting here in Utah, responding officers were on scene and entering the building within 3-4 minutes, while shooting was still going on (they had the benefit of recent active shooter training). That doesn't even count the off-duty officer who was in the mall when the shooting started.

    As far as my response in a situation like this, if the shooter is in my immediate vicinity, then I'll return fire. If not, look for a good place to hunker down with my weapon drawn, but held somewhat discretely.

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