This is a discussion on What if you shoot the BG and the BG shoots someone else?? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MR D ... the BG sees your gun, and grabs the manager, and orders you to put your gun down ... Originally ...
The BG begins pointing the gun and making death threats. A GG on-scene draws a weapon and refuses to disarm. The BG takes a hostage as leverage. And, somehow, any of this means the GG has "inserted" him/herself into anything? Balls. The GG doesn't cause any of this to happen. It's the BG's gig. It's the BG's threats and actions that are the danger and risk. Such suggestions imply it's encumbent on folks to comply with a BG's demands, as if that will make everything alright, and as if anything other than that choice by the GG means the GG is somehow complicit in any damage resulting from the BG's actions. No matter what a prosecutor might claim, it's simply untrue.
The BG will choose the actions he choses. And there isn't anything in such actions to require that innocents disarm themselves and sign their own death warrants, no matter how insane the local PC libs are.
Loaded weapon, pointed at me/others, threatened with death ... and I'm supposed to drop my gun? I'm supposed to, else I'll be charged somehow with causing the outcome? The BG causes the outcome. As the attacked, our choices are limited to surviving the outcome in a very limited variety of ways. Whether the BG will take others with him as he goes down isn't the fault of any GG on-scene. (Keep in mind that GG's aren't like a militarized police force, here.)
Self-induced disarmament at the point of a gun? Won't happen so long as I'm breathing, of that I am certain. I will not give up my firearm in such a situation. That's tantamount to my kneeling with eyes closed. The BG's going to take some hits and go down, before that will ever happen. The only realistic chance of making it through such a scenario alive is that firearm. BTDT. I won't ever make that mistake again.
- A person's drowning. Someone jumps in to help. But then the person dies. The good sam is at fault? No. The attempt is made; it's done in good faith; it's got a good chance of working. Whatever else is true, water and panic are like gas and a match.
- A person's committing a violent felony and those around the BG refuse to comply with his do-it-or-die demands. Then, someone dies in the ensuing shut-down of the BG. The good sam is at fault? No.
That said, though, I agree with the risks over-zealous prosecution, since prosecutors will only be awarded Brownie points if they find someone to pay for the death of a person, even a BG, even if fully justified and the BG caused every moment of pain and suffering involved with all parties. I'm fully aware of the possible (likely?) prosecutorial stupidity and myopia. That's why we have Grand Juries, to avoid such stupidity. So be it.
Last edited by ccw9mm; May 13th, 2007 at 08:00 AM.
No one said prosecutors are sane... or even honest! My opinion... we have 2 US Border Agents and a County Deputy doing Hard Time because of crooked deals and lies a Prosecutor made. How that plays out will be anyones guess. But just on the surface, something smells rotten in Texas and on Capitol Hill.
I would never put my gun down once drawn, and a BG saw it and now we have a showdown and hostage situation. But I can't help but wonder if I made the situation worse by drawing my gun before a BG started shooting.
While I work with law enforcement as part of a tactical team and I am armed, I am not a LEO with powers of arrest.
We were cautioned in our CCW class that while it is a moral judgement of how far you get involved in a situation and to what extent, he did point out that tens of thousands armed robberies are pulled off without shots ever being fired. I've seen countless surveillence videos showing armed gunmen with guns pointed right at peoples heads and leave the store without firing a shot.
It is somewhat rare that once a robber gets his money that he will go ahead and buy a murder rap by shooting the victim (although it does happen). Sometimes it can be best to remain calm and be a good witness.
I may act differently in same situation as they are only hypotheticals... But I have pretty much decided that when intervening in third party scenarios, I will plan on standing by ready to act if the shooting does break out. Until then, I am not rocking the boat.
The legal nightmare is tricky enough when it is a 1st person incident (Me vs. BG). When it involves total strangers in public places things quickly get out of control and I tend to get a little selfish when I am going to place myself in a situation where my actions can get someone else killed. I also do not intend to go to prison because I was a 3rd party in something that didn't play out the way I intended it to.
I could lay out several actual cases where things like that have gone bad for the 3rd party trying to come to the aid of another but do not have the space here for it now.
I am certainly not telling people how to act or when to intervene in a situation or how their moral compass should point.
All I do is point out cases and information based on my education or personal experience in an effort to illuminate aspects the topics of which we discuss.
One thing you might not realize in a trial... While each and every witness on the stand takes an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... None of the lawyers, including the prosecutor takes such an oath!
Last edited by Bark'n; May 14th, 2007 at 01:11 AM.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."