What if you shoot the BG and the BG shoots someone else??

What if you shoot the BG and the BG shoots someone else??

This is a discussion on What if you shoot the BG and the BG shoots someone else?? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just read a story, of a man, that used his weapon, and shot a robber that was holding his gun to the managers head.The ...

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Thread: What if you shoot the BG and the BG shoots someone else??

  1. #1
    New Member Array shovel's Avatar
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    Question What if you shoot the BG and the BG shoots someone else??

    I just read a story, of a man, that used his weapon, and shot a robber that was holding his gun to the managers head.The robber, fell to the floor, got up and draged himself out the door of the store, where he fell, and layed there till the police came. My question, is what If you steped in as above, and shot the bad guy holding the gun to the managers head, and at that time the bad guy, shoots the manager after he was hit, or even missed durning your fire and the bad guy shoots the manager? Should you have waited to see what was going to happen? Or shoot as the good guy did? What would the Law be saying if the manager had gotton shot, once you started shooting? Just sound like a catch 22. You want to save the managers life, but did you cause him to get shot durning all this? Like to hear what you think.
    Never Bluff, Rid the world of the Bad Guys!


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    Legally, I dunno. Some states have better "samiratian" protection.

    Morally, if the BG has a gun at the manager's head, the BG has already shown he is ready to use lethal force. Id repay in kind.

    Many states permit use of deadly force to counter a threat of deadly force (meaning you dont have to wait for the BG to shoot first)

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    This is exactly why Police Snipers train extensively for the "instant incapacitation" shot. The target area is very small, that would put a guys' lights out before he can respond. Even a head shot is no gurantee, unless you damage the right place. VERY HIGH RISK.

    I'm not saying I have the answer to the dilemma, because I still haven't worked out what I would do. I guess it would depend: Has he already shot somebody? Was his finger outside of the trigger guard and the he moved it to the trigger? Maybe I'd take the shot if the gun was generally aimed at the manager, then the BG started to raise it to the guys head. Would I have the presence of mind to notice any of it.

    I hope I'd make the right call.
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  4. #4
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    That's the chance you take when you take the shot. Legally it will depend on the laws in your state or municipality. Also while you may be ok legally in a civil suit you could lose everything and then some.

    It is also why you will hear and read a lot of people who say they will only use their firearm to protect themselves, a family member or a very close personal friend. The older we get the more we have to lose and the decisions we would have made when we were 22 without a wife, kids and house are now a bit different.

    I edited your title to make it a bit more specific. A lot of what if titles make it hard to track threads.
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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Unfortunately your liability varies from state to state. What I can do in Texas and not be liable for might not be the same as Florida for example. As far as did my shooting the BG cause the manager to be shot, that is something we can never know. The bad guy ( if he is able to speak afterwards ) might say he never intended to shoot, but we have no idea of what else might have happened had I not taken the shot(s). There might have been a wannabe Steven Segal at the next check out that might have caused the BG to shoot. The questions I would have to ask myself in that scenario are
    1) If I do nothing and this guy kills someone can I live with that?
    2) If I act and it goes bad, can I live with that?
    3) Do I believe I can effectively engage this BG at this range?
    4) Is this guy acting alone or am I going to be engaging multiple targets?
    5) Is there anything else I can do to maximize my chances of success?

    To me it looks longer written down than it is in my head.
    Last edited by mcp1810; April 23rd, 2007 at 01:24 AM. Reason: typos

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    Its a pretty easy answer... Your life, or your family is not threatened, why did you shoot in the first place?
    If a gun is to someones head, very few people have the skill to make a central nervous system shot, under stress, with a handgun.
    I would say you would have a whole lot of explaining to do.
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  7. #7
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I'm an LEO, after a nine year hiatus.

    I also shoot alot. about 50 rounds/week. I would not take a head shot under the situation you describe. First off, it's not a Co-Worker, second it's not a member of my family. If it was a Co-Worker or family member I most likely would not take the shot, but would "contain" the situation until the Calvery arrived.

    We all miss from time to time, if we are honest about our abilities. I've missed a 7 Yard Head Shot in a match. Matches are not as stressfull as real life scenarios.

    As far as legal liability, ask a Lawyer. It's what they get paid for. Each State is going to have different laws in regards to this. Also, think about the Civil Liability. Do you really want to be paying the family of the Manager after the BG shot him because some "legal beagle" got a jury to believe you were culpable?

    Biker

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    I, too, would hesitate to take a head shot in this situation unless there was some element that made me confident that I would not shoot the manager. I'm sure he would want to avoid taking your bullet just the same as the BG's bullet....
    Bumper
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    That head shot is a real gamble. I would hold off unless he decided to take a shot at me. If he were to start executeing people and there was no other way to stop it I would act.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shovel View Post
    ... a robber that was holding his gun to the managers head ... what If you steped in as above, and shot the bad guy holding the gun to the managers head, and at that time the bad guy, shoots the manager after he was hit ...?
    This isn't hardly caused by anyone other than the violent felon. He's to blame. He set the ball in motion. He's being stopped by forces without guarantee of instant, blood-free, immediate success. But he's being stopped. What he choses to do is his problem. If anything, it illustrates how crucial timing, accuracy and the element of surprise can be. If on a jury, I'd want to know, specifically, why on earth did the guy just stand there like a 7yd target, waiting to get hit, after the BG had been struck and went down?

    Legally though, a prosecutor may well pull out all the stops, as only finding blame for the bloodshed is going to earn him/her any points. Sad, but true. Does that make it right? Nope.
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  11. #11
    Member Array Spartan_117's Avatar
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    that isnt easy to answer. Taking action or not taking action in that case is a risk I think either way. For me...well I would have to be in that situation...and I pray to God I never am. The outcome would obviously be the key.
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  12. #12
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    First off it is important to remember that what is "right" is not always what is "legal," and vice versa. How the courts in your state would likely interpret a case like this is something only a lawyer can tell you.

    As for the moral implications, as others have said this is a very risky, very low percentage shot. I wouldn't take it unless I felt like there was no alternative. If I were ABSOLUTELY certain that the bad guy was about to put one through the ear of the store manager I might try to take the shot, just because I know he is going to die anyway. If I thought there was any chance at all that the bad guy could be "talked down," or that he was not just about to fire, then I would wait.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    First of all, I wouldn't spend any time worrying about the legalities.

    What is right is right whether it causes legal problems or not.

    In the hypothetical situation described above, here is what we know:

    1) the bad guy hasn't shot anyone - YET.

    2) under the best of circumstances, head shots are not easy.

    This is my read: the risk of hitting the manager if you shoot is very high. The risk of the bad guy shooting the manager is also high but IMHO not quite as high.

    No head shot here unless I was certain that the bad guy was going to shoot the manager anyway and . . . .how can you REALLY be certain?
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  14. #14
    New Member Array shovel's Avatar
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    I have thought of this for a while, a very hard call indeed. shovel
    Never Bluff, Rid the world of the Bad Guys!

  15. #15
    Member Array Intentional Flincher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    First of all, I wouldn't spend any time worrying about the legalities.

    What is right is right whether it causes legal problems or not.
    Exactly
    A witty saying proves nothing.

    Voltaire

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