Being a good witness vs Helping out - Page 2

Being a good witness vs Helping out

This is a discussion on Being a good witness vs Helping out within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As a former LEO, i find it hard not to intervene. However without 1. backup 2. a level II or higher holster 3. a potential ...

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Thread: Being a good witness vs Helping out

  1. #16
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    As a former LEO, i find it hard not to intervene. However without
    1. backup
    2. a level II or higher holster
    3. a potential murder being committed , I find calling 911 a better first option.
    More situations require less than lethal response, as opposed to lethal response. Having a gun in this situation is a hindrance, no matter what type of holster.
    some BG's do not instantly comply when they see a gun. Now what do you do?
    It's great you are willing to help, but consider all the possibilities before jumping into trouble. it may be a different situation than you thought, or more than you can handle.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  2. #17
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    I certainly want to avoid confrontation as much or more than anyone else. But I could not stand by & let someone else get hurt either. And that includes financially hurt also. Even though I may get hurt and/or in trouble with the law, I've got to be able to look in the mirror the next day.
    Amen to that.
    I applaud your way of thinking which is also my way.

    Fact of the matter is this...
    If I need help...I need it right then.

    Those that choose to be a "witness" are as worthless to me as **** on a boar hog.

    I am an Reserve Deputy and I cant tell you how many times Ive heard someone that could have made a difference refuse to do so for some reason or another. It makes me want to puke.

    Lame crap like...I didn't help because I might get sued...I could have got hurt....It aint my fight....I dont know them....I just wanted to be a "good witness"...and I get so very tired of it.

    Supposedly "good"and "moral " people that will watch someone get pounded into the dirt and nearly beat to death and refuse to help just aint worth much in my book. People that can look in the mirror and live with themselves and think that they did some great deed by calling 911...because they dont have the balls to do anything else.

    Yeah...I've heard just about every excuse and every justification for NOT helping and it tires me.

    Somehow I seriously doubt that the Good Lord will look favorably on those that justify doing nothing.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array jeep45238's Avatar
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    Depends on the situation by far. I'd like to think that I'd help out whenever I could, but I can't say for sure until I'm put through it.
    ~Mike F.
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  4. #19
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliffh View Post
    This seems like a double standard of sorts. CCW's shouldn't step up for various reasons: "Ain't my fight", "Legal problems", "escalating" etc. etc. But anyone else should because it's their duty. IMO, in the absence of LE, who better to help?
    Double standard, indeed.

    In many places in the U.S. and around the world, if you choose to get directly involved into a confrontation that involves the death of others, you are gone after by legally, financially and socially. Evisceration by the blessings of the community, with the hardest set of "hammers" that can be brought to bear. The good sam whose goal was to mitigate the situation, to stop the BG, to protect the innocents. Double standard? Damn right.

    However. As long as society sees fit to allow such evisceration, those would-be protectors must be allowed the choice to decide whether standing up to risk death and other piddling ramifications is worth it, for someone unknown to them. For family? For friends? Damn right, every time. But while society holds literal ruination, ostracization and imprisonment (at minimum) above the heads of good sams, society's going to reap what it wanted. The day that crap changes? Then good sams will start popping up on every street corner, and the tables will turn immediately. Guaranteed. Why? We're everywhere; we're just castrated and threatened with death and destruction. Simply step aside and remove the "axe" from above the heads of the good sams ... that'll do it.

    Got a problem with it? Read Atlas Shrugged. Then, revisit every situation in the newspapers you've read about since 1960, and every law put into place that causes good sams to be hung from the city walls for such acts of absolute good. And then, work with your legislators to force change of this abhorrent situation.

    Now, that said, nobody woud be happier than I to see the whole bucket of crappy laws and "rules of evisceration" scrapped and burned. The sooner the better. Why? 'Cause people are dying. People are living in fear. Many of us have seen one or more instances where being able to step up right then could have protected someone, or even saved a life.

    If the situation is clear and it's within my reach, particularly if I'm able to do something directly to help someone, I'll likely act. Everything depends on the situation, of course.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    As Chris said, it really does depend on the individual circumstances, but if I had a clear view of the situation and was confident that I could help, I would. That applies whether a gun is involved or not. Those who choose not to do so certainly have that right, but I couldn't live with that choice.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post

    Got a problem with it? Read Atlas Shrugged. .




    If the situation is clear and it's within my reach, particularly if I'm able to do something directly to help someone, I'll likely act. Everything depends on the situation, of course.
    Ayn Rand believed that our primary obligation was to protect our own lives, not to sacrifice for others. She called it the "virtue of Selfishness."

    That's the point. If the situation is clear, then, hopefully, most of us would act. But, few situations are likely to fall into that "clear" category, and, if not, the risk of being wrong, at least in terms of using deadly force, and the resulting devastating consequences, is what would cause me to back away.

    Ron
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    So much depends - on the countless variables.

    My somewhat boring thinking is - ''play it as you see it'' - in as much as, no two situations can be the same and ...... I don't think anyone can decide in advance that ''I will only be a witness'' - or - ''I will always intervene".

    I would prefer to stay out of problems if possible but equally, if it was me being beaten to a pulp it sure would be nice to have some help! I am all too aware also that cell phones will not always have a good signal!

    ...Other situations may well benefit from taking a stand - in particular if the concensus among the majority in an area feel same way. Then strength in numbers can help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I elect to carry to defend myself and my family. I am not a LEO, and would not use deadly force to help others except under the most compelling circumstances where there could be no legitimate question that my use of deadly force was justified. If I could help without using deadly force, then I would not hesitate to do so. But, the consequences of using deadly force and being wrong are far too onerous, jail and financial ruin for my family.

    Both P95 & Ron have some very good words of advice.

    I tend to agree with both.

    I have intervened in more than one incident to help others in a bad situation and I have intervened without giving it a second thought. (I'm a paramedic... I help people... It's not in my nature to just stand there and watch something bad without some sort of action).

    I also think it should be done on a case by case basis as there are too many unknown variables with each case that it would be foolish to make a blanket policy.

    I also agree with Ron in such as getting involved to the extent of using deadly force would be reserved for absolutely the most compelling of circumstances. I have posted in several other threads my reasons for doing that so I won't belabor the point here.

    Suffice it to say I feel that 3rd party intervention on my part and to what extent is always on a case by case basis.

    Remember, Things aren't always what they appear!


    Btw... Hotguns... When our lone county deputy doing contract patrol in my small town puts out a "code-5" (getting crap stomped out of him) his back-up being 20 minutes away... I'm there, everytime I hear the call, day or night! Usually within 3 minutes... (small town) That's happened about 5 times in the last 2 years.

    But glad to know you're there, ready to judge others motives...
    Last edited by Bark'n; May 16th, 2007 at 04:29 AM.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliffh View Post
    Been thinking about this off and on for a couple of weeks and reading another thread on how nobody answered a call for help made me decide to go ahead and start a thread about it.

    I've been reading a lot of threads here & on other forums where advise is given to stand by and be a witness when an "incident" doesn't directly involve ones self and/or a family member.

    I've also been reading quite a few threads where the people in the vicinity of an "incident" are blasted for not stepping in when someone cries for help and/or obviously needs assistance. Everything from "What do you expect from sheeple" to "Those @#%@!#$, why didn't they do something?"

    This seems like a double standard of sorts. CCW's shouldn't step up for various reasons: "Ain't my fight", "Legal problems", "escalating" etc. etc. But anyone else should because it's their duty.

    IMO, in the absence of LE, who better to help? Most (if not all) folks who carry have better training than the everyday person and they definetely have better equipment than people who don't carry.

    I certainly want to avoid confrontation as much or more than anyone else. But I could not stand by & let someone else get hurt either. And that includes financially hurt also. Even though I may get hurt and/or in trouble with the law, I've got to be able to look in the mirror the next day.

    That's not to say that I wouldn't be making a note of license plates, description etc. and making a 911 call, but that'll be on my way to lend a hand, not while ducking behind the nearest cover. Well, it probably would be from cover if there're bullets flying, but that's not going to be the extent of my involvment if there's anything else that can be done.

    And no, that's not just "armchair bravado". I have stepped in to assist a stranger on more than one occasion.

    On the same note, I've also read more advise than I like to move out of a neighborhood just because one or two "bad" elements have moved in. When should a person take a stand and say "That's it, I've had enough. They started the trouble and it's my neighborhood - they can move or change their ways"? Keeping our neighborhoods safe may be LE's job, but they can not do it on their own.

    does your willingness to aid a stranger in distress ( a mugger/robber/ murder assailant situtation) extend to just ANY stranger?

    my point is this...what if the victim is a homeless man in a fight for his life with an assailant?

    what if the victim or stranger appears to be a wasted drug addict
    getting attacked by another bg drug addict and his life was also threatened...

    what if it was a child victim..stranger..at the mercy of an attacker..?\

    or how about an old lady????? your best friend's girlfriend or wife?

    if we truly feel we have certain duties (as ccw holders) when confronted with these scenarios to assist..where do we draw the line on "who or which type of persons" assist?

    it is not all cut and dry...we are all human beings with emotions and bias.......we may feel a more desire to help the old lady but not the drug fiend or homeless..but regardless, they are all victims of a violent attack that we are witness to ..

    i can only speak for myself and it may come across as a coward..but in reality, i carry my ccw with the intent to protect my family, wife, and myself if the situation arises. I must remind myself that my responsibility is to my family first and foremost. NOBODY WINS, especially my family or me, even in the event i happened to save a strangers life by killing the bg, and end up in jail or bk....I do not carry a ccw to be someones bodyguard or protector......nor do i consider myself a leo at any time i carry a gun....

    this is the reality we face as ccw holders............no matter how right you think you are in

    1. shooting the bg to save a life..u will lose....perhaps your freedom and your assets.

    2. do nothing and let a stranger die...and be labeled a coward..

    to each his own..

  10. #25
    Member Array Whyveear's Avatar
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    If someone needs my help I will help them.

  11. #26
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    People around here tend to know where I stand on this, but if it's worth saying once, it's worth saying a thousand times.

    First let me say that I agree with Chris... WAY too many variables, no one can predetermine what they are going to do all the time, every time. It's a case by case thing.

    That being said, I don't think I could look myself in the mirror if I didn't help someone that I could have helped. I have too much of a history and I think the guilt and the weight of my hypocrisy would eat me alive.

    I've been angry for years that no one helped me. How could I justly be angry if I were not willing to make up for the slack I saw in others?

    I want to say I'd help every time, but I just don't know that to be true. I simple CAN'T know that to be true.

    I'll certainly find out if I'm ever placed in that situation. In the mean time, I'll pray I never have to find out.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whyveear View Post
    If someone needs my help I will help them.
    I use to think this way, without qualifications. Then I got Married and was later blessed with a baby girl. My baby girl needs my help and I plan to help her until such a time that she no longer needs my help.

    So what does that mean to the stranger? I am sorry to say it but basically "yoyo"

    I can't anymore justify putting my life, freedom and or fortune in jeapody for the sake of some one who will not likely take over for me in my duties to my family should I pay the ultimate price so that thay didn't have too.

    I am sorry, but at this time in my life, the situation needs to be crystal clear as to what is going on before I will get physically involved.
    other than that it's 911 and "Officer this is what I saw, I wish you well in your investigation."

    MikeV

  13. #28
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    I pretty much preach non intervention in a non life threatening incident ( some fist fight , wife slapping , ect .. witness and call the cops ) . That being said .. NO one is going to abuse a child in front of me , nor escalate a fight ( or dv which is a one sided fight ) to deadly force/ sever bodily injury . I know it really is not consistent , but its my morals and no one else has to live with my actions or lack of them . If its a couple of apparent VCA's going at it ... well god bless the darwin concept for a bit more chlorine in the gene pool , if its other , its a case by case thing . Yes i do sort out what i consider a VCA by dress and demenier , if ya dont like that then dont dress and present yourself as part of the culture .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  14. #29
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    I think these are good discussions because it's irresponsible not to consider the ramifications of your gun clearing leather if you are going to carry firearm.

    General Order #1 to me is "your business is your business until it starts spilling over into the business of me and mine."

    That doesn't mean that I won't do anyting under any circumstances but I'd have to:

    1. Be 100% sure I understood the situation.
    2. Be 100% sure that what I could do would help, not make it worse.
    3. Be 100% sure that a call to 911 and/or otherwise raising an alarm that made it apparent that the crime or incident was being witnessed was not a better move.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by timothy0007 View Post
    this is the reality we face as ccw holders............no matter how right you think you are in

    1. shooting the bg to save a life..u will lose....perhaps your freedom and your assets.

    2. do nothing and let a stranger die...and be labeled a coward..

    to each his own..

    That is not even a fair statement!

    It most certainly does not come down to just your Point 1. and Point 2.

    There is a whole lot more to it than just those two points. There are many more dynamics at play in any situation that potentially involves lethal force, and those two judgements simply don't apply with blanket coverage!
    -Bark'n
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