CCW Identification in a Tactical Situation
This is a discussion on CCW Identification in a Tactical Situation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ccw9mm
A BG in my sights is going to the ground to await arrival of the cavalry, if he's going to remain ...
May 16th, 2007 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
May 16th, 2007 11:29 PM
Drawing a holstered weapon isn't slower?
Originally Posted by Smith&Wessonfan
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
May 17th, 2007 02:02 AM
Some of us are were even smart enough to fill out the papers ourselves....go figure. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
May 17th, 2007 02:25 AM
I believe that there is no practical way of identifying ourselves in a tactical senario especially since anything available to us is available to bad guys. Not to mention most LEO dont know the CC laws anyway I would neither expect them to know this "super secret encoder ring" or believe it.
"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."
-James Earl Jones
May 17th, 2007 09:29 AM
Yeah, Sixto, none of us are as good as you guys in uniform, huh?
Guys, you don't need anything to ID yourself as a "good guy". If you are not wearing a uniform, you'd better be following directions. If you cant do that, we are going to have some problems.
Wear an arm band, get a goofball badge or a girl scout sash, it will make no difference to me. Being a CCW holder means nothing until its time to do paperwork. You are not a deputy, you are not a officer of any kind. You just took a few hours of your time to attend a minimal "training" course and filled out an application.
If you are involved in a incident, chances are you will be cuffed up and disarmed until things are sorted out, no matter what ID things you carry or if you know the secret handshake.
Let's start off with what I call the three basic scenarios;
- You've drawn and the BG capitulates. He's proned out with you covering him.
- You've defended yourself and the BG is down, either motionless or groaning from the hit(s). You're still covering him.
- You are actively engaged with a shooter at some distance. Ideally you are behind cover/concealment hoping the troops arrive real soon.
In the first two cases, you should be alert for the arrival of the PD. You should be busy scanning the area for accomplices or witnesses anyhow. Look & Listen for cops to arrive.
I advocate using your weak hand to semaphore to the arriving PD (over here fellas!). As they approach in their car, reholster your gun (perhaps putting your cover garment behind it to keep it exposed) and then raise your hands out to shoulder level away from your body. Thus you have shown them you want them on the scene and you have secured your weapon before they would be endangered by it. After that, it's simple to follow their commands.
If you don't see them arrive then as soon as they command you, follow their directions deliberately and promptly.
#3 is harder. If you are actively engaged in a firefight (e.g. trying to stop an active shooter a-la V.T.) when the cops arrive, you may or may not hear them approaching. If you do see officers arriving, that's the time to (a)holster your pistol if you can or lay it down and (b)show empty hands and point, gesture or communicate "Shooter in doorway!" or "Shooter behind the red car!" as appropriate. Once the cops are there, your job is to stay out of their way, even if that means being cuffed and pulled out of the area.
LEOs, please note - most BGs tend towards "mexican" carry or non-holster carry in pockets, the hood of "hoodies". That guy wearing a leather holster on his belt is probably a good guy. Add to it that he's not running from you and is complying with orders should be a clue.
Last edited by BillCA; May 17th, 2007 at 09:35 AM.
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
Webmaster - Taking on Gun Control
A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone!
May 17th, 2007 09:51 AM
No where in my post does it say that. Its an indentification issue, not whos better than who.
Originally Posted by BillCA
That might be true, it might not be. I will not take that risk.
Originally Posted by BillCA
May 17th, 2007 10:31 AM
This came across as rather.....um.....condescending.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
Just because someone is not carrying a badge doesn't mean they are inept in a tactical situation, and because someone has one doesn't automatically insure they will react appropriately either. I have met/seen some pretty unfit policeman and security guards. I wager there are plenty of (civilian) combat veterans wandering around our malls and streets who would certainly know how to handle themselves. :)
I digress.....I don't want to hijack this thread and will let the point go. Have a great day!
Last edited by whamonkey; May 17th, 2007 at 10:38 AM.
May 17th, 2007 10:59 AM
Condescending? How so? Again, its an ID issue nothing more.
May 17th, 2007 11:11 AM
I started this thread to gain a better understanding on techniques that we might use to help LEO's know who we are if I'm ever involved in a situation where I had to use my weapon. It is obviously not cut and dried.
I keep thinking about the mall shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah (probably because it happened close to me with friends killed and wounded). The off duty police officer who effectively haulted the killing rampage of the shooter was in all visible aspects a civilian with a gun. He had one distinct advantage in that his wife, who is a LE dispatcher, was on the phone talking to the Salt Lake PD dispatcher explaining the situation and giving details about her husbands dress and appearance so that Salt Lake City PD would not shoot him when they arrived.
This off duty police officer was the one who kept the BG at bay while the police coordinated their assault. They didn't disarm the off duty officer when they arrived, he continued to hold the BG at bay. They were able to identify him as a GG mainly because his wife gave them detailed visual clues. That will probably not happen to most who are involved in a liike situation so... my idea was to get feedback on how one can identify oneself to LEO's while in a critical crisis.
We don't always have a trained person in our pocket who can make a quick and detailed call to 911 and pass along the appropriate info without hyper ventilating and freaking out.
How did this thread turn into a ******* match? Come on people, just give your thoughts on the subject and stay away from the personal attacks. I was hoping LEO's would give us some professional insight and not make fun of girl scouts.
My arm band idea was probably not a good idea, I see that but then that was the point of the thread... to discuss options and technique and there is no need to belittle others.
Semper Paratus (Always Ready)
May 17th, 2007 12:11 PM
No one is belittling anyone, I just tend to tell it like I see it. The insight I am giving is there is no secret handshake or knock. You need to be smart about the situation your in, and understand the the responding LEO is going in blind with very little info. You may be mistaken for a bad guy, so follow directions. Dont get your pantys twisted if you are disarmed and cuffed, think about it from the LEOs point of view.
Originally Posted by Spionen
May 17th, 2007 12:37 PM
I'm no expert, but if I will cooperate at the first sign of a police officer. I wouldn't even consider holstering my gun. My gun will be be tossed or dropped and I'm backing away slowly from the weapon with hands up and moving slowly.
There is no one correct way to respond in every situation and each situation will vary in numerous ways. If I get shot by the police, my position will be that they were doing there job to the best of their ability. Once the details come out the shooting becomes an accident and accidents DO happen. If I'm dead, cremate me, if injured get me to the hospital. From then on what happens happens and I'll face my future with my head held high and dignity.
HELGA: Where are you going?
HAGAR: To sign a peace treaty with the King of England.
HELGA: Then why take all those weapons?
HAGAR: First we gotta negotiate...
May 17th, 2007 12:47 PM
Whew! Thanks for clearing up the "secret handshake" thing. I thought I missed a memo 'cause I don't know the secret handshake.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
I think Sixto is just talking common sense. I am not a LEO but can try to imagine how I would handle such a situation.
First, the LEO gets a call that someone is shooting somewhere. Unlike Hollywood, when the LEO shows up, he doesn't automatically know the good guy by sight.
If you show up on the scene and guy flashes a badge at you, I doubt you could even tell if it was a CCW badge, paramedic badge, real LEO badge or cartoon picture of Daffy Duck until you examine it closely.
Armed with the knowledge that there is a shooter somewhere, how can you NOT treat all people as suspect until you determine otherwise.
How's this for a dumb scenareo: Sixto shows up at the scene; a guy not in uniform turns toward him and flashes a badge while keeping his gun at a low ready.
Sixto says, "cool another cop" and lowers his gun and is about to ask what is going on when the "other cop" who is actually the shooter plants two COM on Sixto.
Sixto's last thought is "Damn, now I won't be able to post on CC.com anymore.
I would rather Sixto be able to stick around for a while.
fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).
May 17th, 2007 12:49 PM
My bad....I misunderstood you I guess. I thought you were implying that we "weren't a deputy or officer of any kind, and just had 'minimal' training" and you didn't care either way.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
Only the good threads turn into ******* contests.
May 17th, 2007 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by PaulG
May 17th, 2007 01:03 PM
Nope, thats not what I meant at all. I was meaning that I dont and wont accept a CCW'er as back up unless I know their skill level, and know they can be trusted, during and after the situation.
Originally Posted by whamonkey
Now if the situation was dire, of course I'll take the help that available to me.
Also, cops most obvious to other cops without the need of a secret handshake.
Of course I dont wont to tangle with a good guy when it can be avoided. But I'm not going to take the time to have a conversation with you to determine if you are a good guy or not. An LEO is going to have tunnel vision looking for the bad guy. If you are still playing cowboy when they arrive, it could be bad news. Its just part of the game I guess.
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