CCW Identification in a Tactical Situation

This is a discussion on CCW Identification in a Tactical Situation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ccw9mm A BG in my sights is going to the ground to await arrival of the cavalry, if he's going to remain ...

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Thread: CCW Identification in a Tactical Situation

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    A BG in my sights is going to the ground to await arrival of the cavalry, if he's going to remain anywhere near me. That's the deal. He's free to run away. But I won't remove the gun from my hand and won't remove the barrel from within a couple feet of his COM until the cavalry arrives. That's also part of the deal. All the better to avoid hangups on a second draw, etc.

    re Re-holstering. Since when? Since the dawn of holsters. Re-holstering takes the gun out of play. It adds a precious second or more to getting it back into the fight, should a quick perp decide to fight his way out. Pass, on that. To hold a BG for the cavalry, I'm within ~5-7yds or so. Thus, I will pay the amount of attention (at low-ready) that needs to be paid to ensure I remain safe until the time I can hand off that responsibility to the LEO's. It's called keeping your 'left' up. Anything less is simply asking for trouble from the BG.

    But that, itself, has its own risks. Inbound LEO's are at risk of seeing me and reacting too quickly, prior to legit. assessment is made. I'd like to think that's far less likely to occur than a BG turning on me if I were to prematurely re-holster. So, there it is.

    YMMV, as always. But, my 'mileage' has taught me that BG's can and do turn on you. BTDT. If I'm armed but have it holstered, frankly I'd prefer to avoid losing that to a BG and getting killed due to my own action.
    Okee Dokee

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith&Wessonfan View Post
    Okee Dokee
    Drawing a holstered weapon isn't slower?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  4. #33
    Member Array whamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Guys, you don't need anything to ID yourself as a "good guy". If you are not wearing a uniform, you'd better be following directions. If you cant do that, we are going to have some problems.
    Wear an arm band, get a goofball badge or a girl scout sash, it will make no difference to me. Being a CCW holder means nothing until its time to do paperwork. You are not a deputy, you are not a officer of any kind. You just took a few hours of your time to attend a minimal "training" course and filled out an application.
    If you are involved in a incident, chances are you will be cuffed up and disarmed until things are sorted out, no matter what ID things you carry or if you know the secret handshake.

    There's your dose of reality.
    Some of us are were even smart enough to fill out the papers ourselves....go figure. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

  5. #34
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    I believe that there is no practical way of identifying ourselves in a tactical senario especially since anything available to us is available to bad guys. Not to mention most LEO dont know the CC laws anyway I would neither expect them to know this "super secret encoder ring" or believe it.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  6. #35
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    Guys, you don't need anything to ID yourself as a "good guy". If you are not wearing a uniform, you'd better be following directions. If you cant do that, we are going to have some problems.
    Wear an arm band, get a goofball badge or a girl scout sash, it will make no difference to me. Being a CCW holder means nothing until its time to do paperwork. You are not a deputy, you are not a officer of any kind. You just took a few hours of your time to attend a minimal "training" course and filled out an application.
    If you are involved in a incident, chances are you will be cuffed up and disarmed until things are sorted out, no matter what ID things you carry or if you know the secret handshake.
    Yeah, Sixto, none of us are as good as you guys in uniform, huh?

    Let's start off with what I call the three basic scenarios;
    1. You've drawn and the BG capitulates. He's proned out with you covering him.
    2. You've defended yourself and the BG is down, either motionless or groaning from the hit(s). You're still covering him.
    3. You are actively engaged with a shooter at some distance. Ideally you are behind cover/concealment hoping the troops arrive real soon.


    In the first two cases, you should be alert for the arrival of the PD. You should be busy scanning the area for accomplices or witnesses anyhow. Look & Listen for cops to arrive.

    I advocate using your weak hand to semaphore to the arriving PD (over here fellas!). As they approach in their car, reholster your gun (perhaps putting your cover garment behind it to keep it exposed) and then raise your hands out to shoulder level away from your body. Thus you have shown them you want them on the scene and you have secured your weapon before they would be endangered by it. After that, it's simple to follow their commands.

    If you don't see them arrive then as soon as they command you, follow their directions deliberately and promptly.

    #3 is harder. If you are actively engaged in a firefight (e.g. trying to stop an active shooter a-la V.T.) when the cops arrive, you may or may not hear them approaching. If you do see officers arriving, that's the time to (a)holster your pistol if you can or lay it down and (b)show empty hands and point, gesture or communicate "Shooter in doorway!" or "Shooter behind the red car!" as appropriate. Once the cops are there, your job is to stay out of their way, even if that means being cuffed and pulled out of the area.

    LEOs, please note - most BGs tend towards "mexican" carry or non-holster carry in pockets, the hood of "hoodies". That guy wearing a leather holster on his belt is probably a good guy. Add to it that he's not running from you and is complying with orders should be a clue.
    Last edited by BillCA; May 17th, 2007 at 08:35 AM.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillCA View Post
    Yeah, Sixto, none of us are as good as you guys in uniform, huh?
    No where in my post does it say that. Its an indentification issue, not whos better than who.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillCA View Post
    LEOs, please note - most BGs tend towards "mexican" carry or non-holster carry in pockets, the hood of "hoodies". That guy wearing a leather holster on his belt is probably a good guy. Add to it that he's not running from you and is complying with orders should be a clue.
    That might be true, it might not be. I will not take that risk.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    If you are not wearing a uniform, you'd better be following directions. If you cant do that, we are going to have some problems.
    Wear an arm band, get a goofball badge or a girl scout sash, it will make no difference to me. Being a CCW holder means nothing until its time to do paperwork. You are not a deputy, you are not a officer of any kind. You just took a few hours of your time to attend a minimal "training" course and filled out an application.
    This came across as rather.....um.....condescending.

    Just because someone is not carrying a badge doesn't mean they are inept in a tactical situation, and because someone has one doesn't automatically insure they will react appropriately either. I have met/seen some pretty unfit policeman and security guards. I wager there are plenty of (civilian) combat veterans wandering around our malls and streets who would certainly know how to handle themselves. :)

    I digress.....I don't want to hijack this thread and will let the point go. Have a great day!
    Last edited by whamonkey; May 17th, 2007 at 09:38 AM.

  9. #38
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    Condescending? How so? Again, its an ID issue nothing more.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #39
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    I started this thread to gain a better understanding on techniques that we might use to help LEO's know who we are if I'm ever involved in a situation where I had to use my weapon. It is obviously not cut and dried.

    I keep thinking about the mall shooting in Salt Lake City, Utah (probably because it happened close to me with friends killed and wounded). The off duty police officer who effectively haulted the killing rampage of the shooter was in all visible aspects a civilian with a gun. He had one distinct advantage in that his wife, who is a LE dispatcher, was on the phone talking to the Salt Lake PD dispatcher explaining the situation and giving details about her husbands dress and appearance so that Salt Lake City PD would not shoot him when they arrived.

    This off duty police officer was the one who kept the BG at bay while the police coordinated their assault. They didn't disarm the off duty officer when they arrived, he continued to hold the BG at bay. They were able to identify him as a GG mainly because his wife gave them detailed visual clues. That will probably not happen to most who are involved in a liike situation so... my idea was to get feedback on how one can identify oneself to LEO's while in a critical crisis.

    We don't always have a trained person in our pocket who can make a quick and detailed call to 911 and pass along the appropriate info without hyper ventilating and freaking out.

    How did this thread turn into a ******* match? Come on people, just give your thoughts on the subject and stay away from the personal attacks. I was hoping LEO's would give us some professional insight and not make fun of girl scouts.

    My arm band idea was probably not a good idea, I see that but then that was the point of the thread... to discuss options and technique and there is no need to belittle others.
    Semper Paratus (Always Ready)


  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spionen View Post
    How did this thread turn into a ******* match? Come on people, just give your thoughts on the subject and stay away from the personal attacks. I was hoping LEO's would give us some professional insight and not make fun of girl scouts.

    My arm band idea was probably not a good idea, I see that but then that was the point of the thread... to discuss options and technique and there is no need to belittle others.
    No one is belittling anyone, I just tend to tell it like I see it. The insight I am giving is there is no secret handshake or knock. You need to be smart about the situation your in, and understand the the responding LEO is going in blind with very little info. You may be mistaken for a bad guy, so follow directions. Dont get your pantys twisted if you are disarmed and cuffed, think about it from the LEOs point of view.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array Pitmaster's Avatar
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    I'm no expert, but if I will cooperate at the first sign of a police officer. I wouldn't even consider holstering my gun. My gun will be be tossed or dropped and I'm backing away slowly from the weapon with hands up and moving slowly.

    There is no one correct way to respond in every situation and each situation will vary in numerous ways. If I get shot by the police, my position will be that they were doing there job to the best of their ability. Once the details come out the shooting becomes an accident and accidents DO happen. If I'm dead, cremate me, if injured get me to the hospital. From then on what happens happens and I'll face my future with my head held high and dignity.
    Pitmaster

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    HAGAR: To sign a peace treaty with the King of England.
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  13. #42
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    No one is belittling anyone, I just tend to tell it like I see it. The insight I am giving is there is no secret handshake or knock. You need to be smart about the situation your in, and understand the the responding LEO is going in blind with very little info. You may be mistaken for a bad guy, so follow directions. Dont get your pantys twisted if you are disarmed and cuffed, think about it from the LEOs point of view.
    Whew! Thanks for clearing up the "secret handshake" thing. I thought I missed a memo 'cause I don't know the secret handshake.

    I think Sixto is just talking common sense. I am not a LEO but can try to imagine how I would handle such a situation.

    First, the LEO gets a call that someone is shooting somewhere. Unlike Hollywood, when the LEO shows up, he doesn't automatically know the good guy by sight.

    If you show up on the scene and guy flashes a badge at you, I doubt you could even tell if it was a CCW badge, paramedic badge, real LEO badge or cartoon picture of Daffy Duck until you examine it closely.

    Armed with the knowledge that there is a shooter somewhere, how can you NOT treat all people as suspect until you determine otherwise.

    How's this for a dumb scenareo: Sixto shows up at the scene; a guy not in uniform turns toward him and flashes a badge while keeping his gun at a low ready.

    Sixto says, "cool another cop" and lowers his gun and is about to ask what is going on when the "other cop" who is actually the shooter plants two COM on Sixto.

    Sixto's last thought is "Damn, now I won't be able to post on CC.com anymore.

    I would rather Sixto be able to stick around for a while.
    fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Condescending? How so? Again, its an ID issue nothing more.
    My bad....I misunderstood you I guess. I thought you were implying that we "weren't a deputy or officer of any kind, and just had 'minimal' training" and you didn't care either way.

    Only the good threads turn into ******* contests.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG View Post
    I would rather Sixto be able to stick around for a while.
    Me too!
    "Just blame Sixto"

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by whamonkey View Post
    My bad....I misunderstood you I guess. I thought you were implying that we "weren't a deputy or officer of any kind, and just had 'minimal' training" and you didn't care either way.

    Only the good threads turn into ******* contests.
    Nope, thats not what I meant at all. I was meaning that I dont and wont accept a CCW'er as back up unless I know their skill level, and know they can be trusted, during and after the situation.
    Now if the situation was dire, of course I'll take the help that available to me.
    Also, cops most obvious to other cops without the need of a secret handshake.

    Of course I dont wont to tangle with a good guy when it can be avoided. But I'm not going to take the time to have a conversation with you to determine if you are a good guy or not. An LEO is going to have tunnel vision looking for the bad guy. If you are still playing cowboy when they arrive, it could be bad news. Its just part of the game I guess.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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