April 13th, 2005 11:30 AM
Would You Draw On A Drawn Gun ??
Hope that this is ok with Euclidean but will quote him and just had to ask the question. In his post of Mar. 24th he stated"The fact is that if someone is pointing a gun at you,there is absolutely no reason not to assume they are about to kill you. Act accordingly." I have been thinking allot about this lately.(I love these forums,I seem to always learn allot from my fellow CCWers/shooters.) What he said makes allot of sense to me. Seems to me that in ANY state you would be justified in killin' the scumbucket.(PERP) I teach a CCW course but I realized that I do not address this perticular sanerio. I feel that I should include this topic in my next class and was hoping that I could get some comments from the rest of you CCWers.--- Should I include this topic at all?--- How should I make it sound to the students?--- What guidelines should I give them to help them make their decissions? I know what I would do, but I want to lay out all the options and let them make the final decission. The people that I teach(for the most part) already have their CCW. They are mostly the wives of the soldiers and sailors that are deployed overseas fighting our "dirty little wars". Some of my students also include active duty military personnel. I have made up the new teaching guidelines but it is not in it's finished form. The more that I ponder this subject,the more questions come up. Any comments would be appreciated.
April 13th, 2005 11:54 AM
Great topic and I can see the open questions. My best advice is "Don't go for free". If the BG has the drop on you try to use the element of suprise on your side, this is where the bug gun may come in handy. Try to maintain a submissive posture until the moment of truth. You can't hesitate here and you must remain determined and focus on the problem at hand. Handguns are pop guns and you can survive. You must however be as the "Duke" said it "WILLING"
April 13th, 2005 12:07 PM
I was taught to immediately seek cover (that being something to stop bullets as opposed to 'concealment') and then draw. In most cases, you could fire, however, if the guy beaks and runs, it's over.
April 13th, 2005 04:54 PM
I agree with Euclidean's original statement and believe it certainly wouldn't hurt to bring the scenario up to your students to at least get them to thinking about it. I wouldn't start instructing them to absolutely follow one course of action, but they do need to consider it.
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
April 13th, 2005 06:20 PM
I'm no expert but to clarify my thinking a little:
Act accordingly does not necessarily 100% mean draw on a drawn gun. What I meant by it was to say that whatever you are doing, you are taking your life in your own hands in that situation.
In the heat of the moment, do you comply and hope you aren't another statistic? Or do you try to make sure you're going to live?
I used to believe that people had a natural instinct that they knew when someone was about to kill them. Oh boy did I get that beat out of me in a hurry. The fact is in the real world you don't know. You just don't know.
I'm a mathematician. I play the numbers game. If I'm in a position to fire first I'll fire first. I'd rather take that chance than take the chance my attacker is some kind and benevolent attacker who only wants my property.
I carry a "tactical wallet", especially for the time being as I'm sans permit. Without a gun my best bet is to comply with a ruse and hope I don't find myself in a morgue in a couple of hours. I hate that feeling. I hate the laws that put me in that situation to begin with.
I've read it more than once how, even against two attackers who had the jump on him, a private citizen drew and shot and won. Acedotal? Yes. Does it prove you can win? Absolutely.
This is to say nothing of if you have children. What if I'm galloping about with my adorable little 7 and 5 year old cousins Chelsea and Carstein when someone points a gun at me?
"Your wallet and the little girl. Now."
It's not the time to bull sh#t around.
Action beats inaction all the time. I encourage anyone to read about the combative mindset. It's not a bunch of hippy mall ninja bull it's important. You have got to get your head together before you even start talking about what gun to use or what's good training, etc.
April 13th, 2005 08:59 PM
Drawing against a drawn gun
First of all, to RSSZ: I'm an instructor too. I try to teach AWARENESS as in the condition levels (white, yellow, orange and red) so that they see troube before it reaches that point. I also teach layered defensive postures, and encourage carrying nonlethal weapons if your permit system allows as is the case here in Florida. I also encourage a course in combatives (hand to hand) although I'm not qualified to teach that. However I do advocate
Originally Posted by Euclidean
ju-juitsu or Aikido as possibly being amongst the most effective systems for folks who are my age (and not as strong as they once were), or just not into "punches, kicks and other Chuck Norris stuff"
Euclidean: I agree with everything you've said and it was WELL said, sir! I would add that for me, it would come down to a question of range. Absolutely I understand that in such a situation I'm risking my life and I'm fine with that. Sheepdog mentality, I guess. But speaking as a teacher of psychology and teaching a target group that does include some of the criminal element, I'd have to say that it seems to be getting increasingly rare these days to get robbed and then get left alone. A lot of folks want to see what it "feels" like to kill or hurt somebody real bad even if they tell themselves they're just trying to discourage an eyewitness account to the police or to discourage testimony....
By "range" I'm thinking distance from me to the attacker and for me I think that "medium range" is the most lethal, IMHO. Just out of arm's reach but too close to seek cover and draw. Further away and I have time to find cover. Contact and I can either sweep gun hand to the outside or pin to the inside as I draw my own weapon and fire from retention.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
April 13th, 2005 09:17 PM
Not much to add - Ex-Soldier, Euc' and Taps have covered most.
I do very much think tho that if you are on the nasty end of someone's gun - it is wise to assume they WILL shoot - too many cases where this happens. Thus - the question would be ''how to die''!!! Meaning for me - go down fighting. The range thing is crucial and seeing as every situation is likely to be unique - it is hard to make rules!
As with many I suspect - when teaching I stress the ''anger'' aspect if someone is in extremis - it is an anger that needs focussed on the BG - a feeling of being incensed at the threat and so - take any and every measure to remove or neutralize that threat. This can get adrenaline up enough to help - and then - it's ''do what you can''.
I tend to think that ''sudden'' is a key word. None of use responds that well when startled and so if this applied to a BG I do think it might give that fraction of a second to either make cover or achieve an arm sweep - whatever. A very loud shout/scream - a rolling dive - a combination of these - who knows. I rather hope not to have to ever put it to the test but - for sure would go ''explosive'' whilst considering that it may be my last moments.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
April 15th, 2005 11:15 AM
Depends a lot on your speed of draw, speed of repeat hitting ability, and likelihood of your load's sufficing. A real gunman, especially if wearing armor and with real gear, could probably get away with this. Most people are going to lose, and lose badly.
April 15th, 2005 12:11 PM
heyu, If one stands flatfooted face to face with the BG I would agree that one would loose and loose badly. IOW ---- You WILL be shot. As I teach in Defensive Knife,you WILL be cut. This you have to assume and be ready to deal with. It is your responsibility to get shot/cut "as little as possible". It is your responsibility to protect yourself and your family which you can very well do,but it will "cost you'. Hopefully as little as possible. There will be NO winners ---- BUT---you could come out ahead of the BG. The specific tactics that I teach I will not divulge out of respect to my students. But suffice it to say that I try to the best of my knowledge to make them as prepared as possible for the real world. The dirty,cruel,injust world that we all have to live in. I have had two of my students use their knowledge on certin BG's. They both came out very well. Both were female's. Both were taught by me and another instructor to fight very"dirty". They did just that. Neither lady was even arrested. Both BG"s went to the hospital.Both BG's have permanent damage to their bodies. Ladies can be(most already are)great fighters if given the proper motivation. They are like a very concentrated,fast moving,TORNADO. I help(hopefully) them just realize their potential for defensive crualty. I am not the guru of this subject but I do have some first hand knowledge and so do some of my friends. We will only take students that are active duty military or the wives or children of active duty military. We are both retired military so we feel that we are doing our part to help "our own". We believe that every person has the right to defend his/her self to the best of their ability. We are not lawyers but we do have a volunteer that comes in to discuss certin topics and to answer the multitude of questions that arise. He is a retired USMC lawyer(prosicutor) that has expierance it this topic. We try to make our students as informed as possible to help them make the really tough decissions. But we let them know right from the start that every case is different and the ultimate decission IS THEIR'S.------
April 20th, 2005 02:43 PM
Last night I was reading my latest NRA magazine.
I especially like the section with real life situations were people defend themselves with a gun. While reading this section it suddenly dawned on me how many people, according to the stories I was reading, drew their gun on a BG with a gun in their hand. Of course you don't know exactly the layout in each case but it did seem odd where for the most part we all say, "no you don't have a chance against a drawn gun". I guess each situation dictates what you would acctually do. Just an observation on my part.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
April 22nd, 2005 04:11 PM
Most of the time, the stories in the Armed Citizen column involve street punks, not high speed/low drag gun handlers. These people (like the guy in NY state somewhere who was killed by the pizza delivery person) expect one reaction and are behind the curve when something else happens.
However, if the person is ready, you've got about a half second head start on him and his gun is already out and pointed at you. All he has to do is pull the trigger while you have to draw, align and fire. You would need to do something else to slow him down as you draw. This could involve movement if you aren't close to him, or, if you are close enough, a disarm might be better. Get the gun pointed somewhere else and then either take it away from him or tie it up while you draw and fire. (If you go for the draw, be sure you don't shoot your own arm that has tied up his gun).
While cover is more desirable than mere concealment, don't turn your nose up at concealment if cover isn't available or is too far away. Just remember to keep going; expect him to shoot through where he last saw you.
There's a reason The Sopranos
is set in New Jersey.
April 24th, 2005 03:10 AM
Most of the time being the key - you might face ex-Special Forces people hired by your ex-wife to kill you or rob the Golden Arches while you grab a bite to eat. It's not likely.
Most of the time, the stories in the Armed Citizen column involve street punks, not high speed/low drag gun handlers.
The quality gun handlers, if the gun is already out and they're perpetrating a serious crime, are likely to leave you as a corpse regardless. You might as well die trying versus dying in a meat locker after complying with their demands.
Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.
April 24th, 2005 07:19 PM
I'm not going down with my gun in my holster if I can help it. By pointing a gun at me the perp has signified that he/she intends to inflict death or grave bodily harm on me, and he/she is in the act of a forcible felony. I'm legally justified twice over to use deadly force.
May 2nd, 2005 03:58 AM
That's the attitude. If it's an Ex spec-ops guy hired to kill you, why not try your luck? What's the worst that can happen? Giving up is sure to get you killed.
Originally Posted by rfurtkamp
May 25th, 2005 08:05 AM
Each situation is unique, only they can decide in that stressfull moment if they can pull and shoot.
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