New girlfriend (w/bi-polar ex)
This is a discussion on New girlfriend (w/bi-polar ex) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, Here is my dilemna. (and unfortunately turning and running isn't a direct option or one i want to exercise just yet.. lol)
I have ...
May 24th, 2007 09:10 AM
New girlfriend (w/bi-polar ex)
Ok, Here is my dilemna. (and unfortunately turning and running isn't a direct option or one i want to exercise just yet.. lol)
I have been seeing this woman for a few months or so and really like her and her kids. Her one downside is her bi-polar/crazy ex-husband. He has a few suicide attempts (none successful). HE left her for another woman but seems to not be able to get over her. He will be nice one phone call then nutty the next.Well his phone has been disconnected, cable also, about to be evicted from his apartment, his 'new' girlfriend is about as crazy as he is running between her husband and him. If I wasn't in it I would think Jerry Springer!
Well with no phone (and I could see it coming...he stops by unannounced repeatedly!) She has many threatening text messages and is getting a restraining order against him today (5-24) but is afraid, being a single mom, that this will push him over the edge and he will turn violent against her. I stayed with her last nite to give her a lil comfort since the cops were called yesterday due to his actions (and low and behold he cruised by when the cops were there!) she isn't 'against' guns but I left my weapon at home, against my better judgement, as her kids are very gun-ignorant. Of course if it is on me then they will never get to it...(but thats another story for another day) Mainly I didn't wanna be responsible for shooting/killing the kids dad if he made entry. I did have my pepper spray which I woulda used liberally at the first sign of him...mainly just for principal as it is "less than lethal" then dealt with any repurcussions from there. He needs to learn a lesson but I really don't wanna be the one to hafta teach it to him.!
We know the police are time and personnel strapped and mostly are not available for prevention but any advice on how to ease her mind, help her without me ending up in court/jail would be appreciated. As I said she is going for a T.R.O. today and I told her that has to be the first step...get LE on our side.
This is mine. That is yours.
Lets keep it that way.
May 24th, 2007 10:07 AM
Now i'm not an expert but i've been in your situation. My concern is for your safety and theirs also. If this guy decides you're in the way of him returning to his happy family life you could be in big trouble. If he is a drinker or a drug user you need to be prepared to protect yourself from anything. He could break in in the middle of the night with a knife. He may still have a key. I personally would not disarm myself without knowing if there will be a threat. If you can swing a couple day vacation for you and her to let it blow over that's always helpful. Don't expect LE to be too helpful. It will depend on who you get. With my situation all they kept saying was he hasn't been violent yet. My response was the same as yours ...what do i do if he breaks in? In my case I took her to my house for a couple weeks and he got the idea.
That TRO only works if the guy doesn't want to go to jail.
Oh I forgot the punchline.... She went back to him 4 months later. What i'm saying is you never know how things are gonna turn out. Trying to help someone is great but don't make a rash decision.
"When you reload in low light encounters, don't put your flashlight in
your back pocket.. If you light yourself up, you'll look like an angel
or the tooth fairy...and you're gonna be one of 'em pretty soon."
May 24th, 2007 10:36 AM
1) Decide if this relationship is worth killing a human being, because that is the direction it appears it is heading towards - one day he is gona show up all crazy and more than likely it will be up to you to stop him from doing whatever crazy plan the voices on his head tell him to do. If you are ok with the idea of taking a life to save others, keep reading below.
2) Carry 24/7 - the moment you put down your firearms could be the moment you need it most (take it with you even to the bathroom, going to the kitchen for a glass of milk/water at 1am, etc)
3) Get the training you need to deal with this problem - ie, are you good in hand to hand combat, close quarters firearms use, do you know how to utilize correctly chemical agents (ie pepper spray - it is not just spray and the threat goes down, more than likely it will keep charging on a straigt line against you, so spray and move), thought about a tazer for her while she learns how to carry/use firearms? etc,etc,etc
4) Sit down with your new partner and work out what you two are gona do about the x and explain that you will take his life in order to save yours or hers/the kids - if she can't handle it, drop the relationship and don't go near them unless she is ok with the subject - what you rather have in court, a woman who tells the jury "he shoot my children's father, I told him not to do it!!!" or one that says "he did everything he could to save us, I regret that it had to come to this, but I thank him for saving us from my x husband"? - think about that for a minute and rethink # 1 above. Also, make sure she is ok with taking the x hubby / her children's dad life for self defense - if she is not, drop the relationship, or one day you'll walk up to her opening the door to him and putting everyone in danger.
5) Sit down with your new "family" and work out a plan of action for when the x hubby shows up (either when you are all together or when one of you is by themselves); tell the childred that their dad is sick and needs medical attention or what not. Have them lock up all doors/windows/etc and to go to the safe room, arm themselves then call 911 as soon as the x shows up (make sure they dont try to reason with him/let him in/etc - let police deal with him). Make sure you review her / yours house for security upgrades (new locks on doors/windows, safety glass, alarm, etc).
6) A restraining order is a helpful legal document - it does not have magical powers that stop an asailant dead on its tracks when you have one (a firearm doesn't even do that, what makes you think a piece of paper will?) - explain this to her while you do # 5 above
7) This 6 points will be your new life if you decide to go on with this relationship - 24/7, not just some days... every single one of them!!! Is this what you really want? It is up to you.
May 24th, 2007 10:49 AM
Well, if you getting out of that situation isn't an option, then you are voluntarily putting yourself SMACK DAB in the middle of it.
It may be prudent to at least CONSIDER that if anything goes down it's because your presence in the situation made it escalate (out of jealousy, whatever). I'm not trying to make you feel bad, just trying to make you think.
Your refusal to bow out even until she has handled her ex husband and completely ex-communicated him from her life is adding tension to an already tense situation.
While I would hate to be unarmed in this situation, you have to be triply careful. You aren't up against some nameless face who's out for a score, you are up against the father of your girlfriend's children (let me reiterate.. GIRLFRIEND'S CHILDREN). They are not your step children yet and the status of "girlfriend" while it may be a very committed, healthy and promising relationship, in the eyes of the public, this DOES look like a Jerry Springer situation and the use of deadly force may EASILY look like a jealous or over cocky boyfriend who's trying to rid the ex husband PERMANENTLY from the equation.
Also, have you talked to your girlfriend? Have you made a plan of action should he come around? What if you shoot him and she turns on you because of her stance on guns and helps hold the nails as Prosecutors nail you to the wall because, "you stole away my babies' daddy."
First, TALK TO HER!
Yes, she's getting a TRO but that doesn't mean she's ready to see him die on her front porch because her new boyfriend thought he was going to harm her. While that sounds noble and chivalrous, chivalry never died it just became illegal to act on it most of the time.
Get a sense of what kind of force SHE would be comfortable with. After all, from your statement, he's not so much after you as he is after her and you are knowingly putting yourself in a questionable situation (something we CCWers usually try to avoid at ALL costs), therefore she calls the shots on the level of violence as she will be either your best friend or worst enemy in a court of law.
If she doesn't like guns, like I said, she probably will NOT be okay with you shooting him, no matter what he's done.
Again, you're putting yourself in that situation so if you find your hands tied, well, you are the one who supplied the rope.
Even if this guy does come to the house, break the restraining order with a weapon and threatens you and you shoot him, the very first question that anyone is going to ask you is, "What were you doing there with a gun? Waiting for him?"
And if she pipes in and says, "I had NO idea he was armed and I certainly didn't want ANYONE to get killed."
Well, now you are up a creek without a paddle.
Secondly, I'd say either get her and the kids away or invite them over to your place. If something goes down at YOUR home you have a little more weight supporting your use of deadly force.
Thirdly, talk to that woman about taking her protection in her own hands. Even if it is just learning how to use pepper spray of just swinging a baseball bat, encourage her to take this matter into her own hands. You are the boyfriend, not the husband, not the father, not really anything to the public and legal eye and the less involvement you have in this tension between ex-husband and wife the better.
I hope that you stay safe.
Last edited by limatunes; May 24th, 2007 at 10:55 AM.
May 24th, 2007 10:56 AM
Sagacious advice from Limatunes.
I'd only quibble on one point:
It is entirely within the realm of possibility that in ex's mind, getting rid of the new boyfriend is all that stands between him and his happily ever after with her. Or that in his mind, making an example out of the new boyfriend will put her in her place.
Get a sense of what kind of force SHE would be comfortable with. After all, from your statement, he's not so much after you as he is after her
and you are knowingly putting yourself in a questionable situation (something we CCWers usually try to avoid at ALL costs), therefore she calls the shots on the level of violence as she will be either your best friend or worst enemy in a court of law.
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
May 24th, 2007 11:24 AM
all good advice..thanks one and all.
It sure makes me think.
I have never been one to leave a friend hanging...I have gone to jail (overnite only) with my friends when I prolly could have ran and got away from the fight. But I do understand where you all are coming from.
God, how do I get into drama like this !!??
Many issues to ponder on this one...and I am, legally, on the outside and would like to keep it that way.
The "come to my place for a few days" is prolly a good option..and being a holiday weekend could and should happen. He knows where her folks live, obviously, but does not know me from Adam so I got that going for me.
Thanks again for the thought provoking ideas.
This is mine. That is yours.
Lets keep it that way.
May 24th, 2007 11:26 AM
All the above but also;
call the local Police and ask for the Neighborhood/Community Officer. It will likely be a nice old guy that is easy to chat to. Talk through your problem with them and mention you are worried for the welfare of your GF and yourself, to add emphasis mention that you might want to get a restraining order.
As long as you make your case well which shouldn't be hard then the Officer will be sympathetic to redirecting a patrol past your place more often, not much but helpful for response times if you call 911. More importantly however he has to document that he spoke to you and you now have a record that you were worried enough to call the police on XX/XX/2007.
They might even go to his house and warn him, this might make him worse or make him back off. Either way it looks bad for him that he was warned.
I have first hand experience of the above following a neighborhood dispute last summer.
May 24th, 2007 11:29 AM
First, In Ohio you dont want a TRO, you want TPO. She needs to convey to the clerk that she is scared of him and scared for her kids. This will give the police some teeth if he keeps coming around and causing problems, be it in person, by phone or whatever. Also, its just a piece of paper, it does little to protect her. You will not be protected at all by it, unless you get your own.
I hate to say it, but he is never going away. As long as your involved with her, you are involved with him. I am assuming he is the kids father. Is the divorce final? Has the court set up visitation sched. for the kids? Where do the kids go when Mom is working? All these things and more need considered. These situations almost always get messy for years to come, and it drags the kids through a lot of garbage kids dont need to see.
The best advice I can give you (I see this day in and out, several a day at work) is be the bigger man. Dont taunt, ignore his actions as much as you can. (walk softly, carry big stick) Responding to him will only add fuel to his fire. He is trying to get a rise out of you, dont give it to him. He will get worse at first, then he will calm down.
I would remain in the backround, keep my mouth shut as much as possible, but be there if needed. To many new boyfriends end up in deep manure because they want to be the hero.
May 24th, 2007 11:33 AM
This is very true.. I amend my original statement to concur with Matt.
Originally Posted by MattLarson
May 24th, 2007 11:47 AM
TRO, TPO...I guessed an acronym..lol...Fortunately I am inexperienced with these things..ha ha.
Good idea on getting one for me as well such that I have this "legal protection" also...thanks,.
So that when she shows me hers I will be able to show her mine...LOL
This is mine. That is yours.
Lets keep it that way.
May 24th, 2007 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by SIXTO
Yep. Not quite the immediacy of your situation, but my wife and I went through similar stuff with her ex. Their situation was joint custody, and they had been divorced for several years. He was manipulative with their daughters, my (now) wife- because she had "to play nice", and anyone else he could drag in.
She had one conversation with him, after we were engaged, after that, I took the calls(her choice). Invariably, he would have some "issue" that he would try to expand into, "she did/said/blahblahblah". Invariably, my response was, "I'm sorry, that wasn't the issue we were discussing, what do you want to do about....?" After a final 45 minute converastion like that, he never called again.
Now, the ex in this case was more "feminine" in agression- he preferred to induce emotional turmoil, though he had been physically abusive. He was also 1400 miles away. That helps. I sit at a desk, but I'm not exactly a desk-weenie, nor do I look like one. That helps as well (I've met him twice).
Take some long, careful time, and have long, careful conversations. If she really is ready to be done with him, you've got a place to start. If she's saying he's "troubled/she feels bad for him/etc.,etc.,", odds are high you'll end up in an ugly, life-changing event. Take care.
Oh, yeah: if he truly is bi-polar, call the Department of Human services, after getting the Protective Order, and find out what they can do, as far as "wellness" checks on him, to make sure he isn't a danger to himself, or others.
May 24th, 2007 11:49 AM
Watch that crazy guy and be very careful.
May 24th, 2007 12:06 PM
I just thought about this... if you get one too he is served with a copy. He will then have your full name and DOB, it will be easy to find where you live. He will then know you from Adam. It might be better not to get one for you.
Originally Posted by SOLOLUCKY
May 24th, 2007 12:13 PM
You asked for advice... I will be blunt.
Guns and mental illness don't mix. Period!
I would advise to either get out of the relationship or give up your guns and live with and deal with your new family dynamics unarmed. It's that simple. If you choose to keep your guns, you may end up in prison and everyones lives will be destroyed if a shooting comes of all this.
That man has children with his ex-wife. (your new girlfriend)... He will always be part of the relationship on some level for the rest of his life. And he will be like a ticking time bomb.
My god... if you end up having to shoot this man... I don't see how anyone can come out a winner!
I have dealt with bi-polar patients in a professional capacity for almost 3 decades... First off... a lot of times being bi-polar is not the patients only mental pathology. Frequently it is associated with paranoia and sometimes, although to a lesser extent even a degree of schizophrenia. They can be totally unpredictable. Very frequently people with mental illness abuse alcohol or other drugs and that makes things way worse.
Any other mental pathology that is in addition to a bi-polar condition, magnifies the potential for more bizzare and disconnected behavior expodentially.
While medication can control symptoms and suppress outrageous behavior quite effectively, there will be periods of out of control behavior and detachment from reality regardless.
Almost, without exception, people on heavy duty psychiatric drugs will choose to go off of them at some point, simply because they don't like the side effects and the way the meds make them feel. (How many times do you read or see on the news where a person killed a family member or someone else, and we learn that the killer was "Off Their Meds?) It happens all the time!
Absolutely none of the medications used to treat any psychiatric disorder should be taken with alcohol, and adults being adults, a lot of people will still consume alcohol even though they take medications where they shouldn't.
Divorce is one of life's biggest stressors that you can have. Many people never get over it and act out inappropriately. Add a mental disorder or two into the mix and you have serious problems. Add a new boyfriend who is armed to the equation and the likelihood of disaster is so high I don't even want to contemplate it.
I am not a doctor or psychiatrist. I am just a paramedic. I certainly can't make medical or psychiatric diagnosis and what I say here should in no way be construed as such! I can't stress that more.
I don't deal with these patients in the same way a doctor or psychiatrist does. (Hospital, clinical or office setting)
I deal with these patients, at 2 o'clock in the morning, in the midst of crisis and during the aftermath of a tragedy. I deal with them on the street, in the home and in the back of an ambulance. I deal with them in the midst of outrageous and destructive behavior in an "uncontrolled environment." I deal with them in ways and in situations that the doctor or the psychiatrist never deals with them.
You can take from this what you want. It is a very sad situation to say the least, and it isn't fair for any of you. Life isn't fair, but Life is Reality.
Good Luck on whatever you decide.
Last edited by Bark'n; May 24th, 2007 at 01:28 PM.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
May 24th, 2007 12:14 PM
If she continues to live in her house (not clear on what kind of domicile)--recommend hardening it a little bit more--change the locks (use longer ~4" screws on the deadbolts); install peep hole w/cover; ensure the windows are locked/braced (window A/Cs are easy to rip out); black basement windows; make sure there is at least one cell phone always at the ready (like a pay-as-you-go phone); and one safe room...or safer room
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