You are the "Shoplifter"

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Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #136
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    Post Close To A Billion...? - Way Off.

    "$25 Billion is the estimated annual cost of shoplifting in the US"

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  3. #137
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    my point exactly QK... I just don't see why people have to be all offended by having a store try to prevent theft...
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #138
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    Um, who said anything about failing to conceal your weapon causing the false stop?
    Sorry, I may have misinterpreted this:
    Originally Posted by BoomerADF
    If you decided you want me to view your weapon I am more than likely going to react by either making an attempt to stop you, take your weapon etc...
    As for the last sentence, I don't know what state you are in, but around here that sign isn't worth the plastic it's printed on.
    Private property owners have a right to refuse admittance to whomever they want. Whether it's a trespassing offense or CCW offense, taking a gun onto private property posted "no guns" is surely a violation of various states' CCW or trespassing statutes.

    For example: Several malls I know of have posted signs prohibiting kids under a certain age to enter without a guardian after a certain time. I dont't know (offhand) about federal courts, but local and circuit courts have said that the signs were adequate notice to support a trespassing charge for an underage kid who went into the mall in violation of the signs.
    Last edited by and the; May 25th, 2007 at 09:39 PM.

  5. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    Private property owners have a right to refuse admittance to whomever they want. Whether it's a trespassing offense or CCW offense, taking a gun onto private property posted "no guns" is surely a violation of various states' CCW or trespassing statutes.

    For example: Several malls I know of have posted signs prohibiting kids under a certain age to enter without a guardian after a certain time. I dont't know (offhand) about federal courts, but local and circuit courts have said that the signs were adequate notice to support a trespassing charge for an underage kid who went into the mall in violation of the signs.
    I interpreted that differently than you did. Iwonder if the original author could be called upon to clarify it for us?

    Once again, in this state "no gun" signs have no legal force whatsoever. Granted some off limits places are posted, (schools, hospitals, etc.) but the sign has no bearing on whether it is legal to carry in that place. If you are caught carrying in a store, they can ask you to leave, and you have to do it or else be charged with tresspassing.

  6. #140
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    CPL in Michigan

    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    Not many people mentioned that they would tell the security people that they had a permit and then show them the permit.

    A private person, security guard or not, may make an arrest for a felony, in MI anyway. CCW without a permit in MI is a felony. If they know you have a gun, and you refuse to show them your permit and make a stand with the "I'm waiting for the police" line, it would seem like a lawful arrest by the citizen/security guard to me.

    However my understanding of Michigan Law is I only have to show my permit to a police officer not a private citizen or security guard. It is none of their business if I have a permit or not. If they want to report me to the police it is their option but I do believe most have stated to call the police and we will wait for them to show up. That is what I would do.

    http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123...0941--,00.html

    Proper Conduct During Encounters with Police

    Responsibilities of Individuals With a CCW License:

    1. An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.

    * Failure to disclose this information to a police officer carries the following penalties:

    * First offense = State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CCW license suspension.
    * Second offense = State Civil Infraction - $1000 fine and CCW license revocation.

    2. An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall have the license in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol.

    * Failure to possess CCW license when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and a $100.00 fine.

    3. Upon request, an individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a police officer:

    * His or her license to carry a concealed pistol
    * His or her driver license or personal identification card

    * Failure to show CCW license and Michigan driver license or Michigan personal identification card when carrying a concealed pistol is a State Civil Infraction and $100.00 fine.

    4. A pistol carried in violation of numbers 1, 2, or 3 is subject to immediate seizure by a police officer.

    * If a weapon is seized for failure to possess a CCW license while carrying a concealed pistol:

    * Individual has 45 days in which to display their license to carry a concealed pistol to the law enforcement agency that seized the pistol and the pistol shall be returned.

    * If the individual does not display their license to carry a concealed pistol within 45 days the pistol is subject to forfeiture.

    To Ensure Safety During Police Encounters

    If you are stopped by a law enforcement officer you should:

    * Keep your hands where an officer can see them.
    * Cooperate fully with the police officer.
    * If you have a gun with you, tell the police officer as soon as possible.
    * Do not make any quick movements, especially toward the weapon.
    * If in a vehicle at night, turn on your vehicle’s dome light.

    In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others. The police officer will return the pistol at the end of the stop unless the individual is being charged with a violation of the act or any other law that allows for the weapon to be seized.

  7. #141
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    An arrest is an arrest. Charges are another thing. If you want to let the security guy arrest you until the police get there just because you wouldn't show the guard your CCW permit, that's your business.

    The fact that you had a permit doesn't make the guard's arrest of you unlawful. Assuming the guard stopped you because he saw a gun on you, and no other reason, why wouldn't you just tell the guy you had a permit and show it to him? There are a lot of things that make sense to do when it comes to carrying guns that aren't mandated by law.

  8. #142
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    and the,

    A lp person is a private citizen under the employ of a for profit organization. Maybe in some states someone can twist the statutes to try and show somehow a lp person has a uber right to a "citizens" arrest. And that right superceeds the right of someone to not be held hostage by some other citizen.

    But come on, no one in their right mind is going to reveal a CCW because a lp employee could use that to his/her advantage.

    I get a huge chuckle out of all the lp personnel who take umbrage to all the lawful CCW people asserting their constitutional rights.

    And to my fellow ccw bretherern, it is not a showdown. No need to escalate the situation. Just assert that we will stay in public until a uniformed LEO arrives at the scene and then submit to the LEO, not to the lp employee.

    My big issue is if a lp employee decides to not accept my assertion that I will wait where I decide until a uniformed LEO arrives. If that would ever happen, then as I said before, it is game on!

  9. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    An arrest is an arrest. Charges are another thing. If you want to let the security guy arrest you until the police get there just because you wouldn't show the guard your CCW permit, that's your business.

    The fact that you had a permit doesn't make the guard's arrest of you unlawful. Assuming the guard stopped you because he saw a gun on you, and no other reason, why wouldn't you just tell the guy you had a permit and show it to him? There are a lot of things that make sense to do when it comes to carrying guns that aren't mandated by law.

    An arrest is not an arrest if you are not a LEO. I don't know where you are, but in KRS a shop owner, or agent thereof can detain you, but they cannot make an arrest unless you comit a crime sufficient to warrant a citizens arrest.

    Once again, you are the one changing the topic by making the stop about a poorly concealed weapon. IF someones weapon became exposed and security or whoever gets all excited, then informing them of your permit might be in order. If your weapon has not been exposed, then I for one am going to keep quiet about it until LEOs arrive.

    BTW I can't help but notice you only have 4 posts on this site and all of them are in this thread. What prompted you to respond here first?

  10. #144
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    I would never stop a person if I saw them carrying a firearm. I have no desire or need to cause that fight. Plus how do I know if its legal or not? I may watch them a tad more if I know nothing of them, but I am not going to confront or stop them if I spot a firearm on their person.

  11. #145
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    LOL true story.Back when I was young. My friend and I were walking around and went to blockbuster. I had a porn on me from another store and we walk out of blockbuster and the detector beeps,lol the guy asked whats in my bag and I say a movie from another store, and there was a women present also so he says can i see and i tell him no its from another store, he then tells the women to call the cops and as me and my friend walked out he blocks the door and says you cant leave till the cops get here. I was very pissed and wanted to shove him out of the way. Cops came and told me to show them whats in the bag so I showed them and we were let go. I would not give up my gun to a blockbuster employee if that ever happend again, they might accidently shoot someone,lol.

  12. #146
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    An arrest is not an arrest if you are not a LEO.
    In this state it is.
    764.16 Arrest by private person; situations.

    Sec. 16.

    A private person may make an arrest—in the following situations:

    (a) For a felony committed in the private person's presence.

    (b) If the person to be arrested has committed a felony although not in the private person's presence.

    (c) If the private person is summoned by a peace officer to assist the officer in making an arrest.

    (d) If the private person is a merchant, an agent of a merchant, an employee of a merchant, or an independent contractor providing security for a merchant of a store and has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has violated section 356c or 356d of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being sections 750.356c and 750.356d of the Michigan Compiled Laws, in that store, regardless of whether the violation was committed in the presence of the private person.
    Once again, you are the one changing the topic by making the stop about a poorly concealed weapon.
    I apologize.

    BTW I can't help but notice you only have 4 posts on this site and all of them are in this thread. What prompted you to respond here first?
    Gotta start somewhere. I thought it was an interesting thread......Just surfing after a Google search for various state laws for motorcycle carry.

    I don't understand what you mean by the security guard using your permit to his advantage after he already knows you have a gun, whether he sees it or whether he discovers it by some other means? Why not just show him the permit? Doesn't it make you look more reasonable than the security guard when the police get there AND when you're suing the store for false imprisonment? And I understand this is only a hypothetical, but it's far more likely that you'd be spotted with your gun showing than be arrested for no reason by loss prevention people at a corporate store. Their standards are so tight as far as who the may arrest, that there are very, very few cases of someone being arrested while leaving the store after they paid for their merchandise. This certainly holds true for stores like Sears, JC Penney, etc....They've been sued so many times that if they don't see you take the stuff and exit without paying, chances are they're not going to bother you. The law says they can arrest you for larceny IN a building. You don't even have to leave the store, but most places will even wait for you to leave the store rather than take a chance of a bad arrest.
    Last edited by and the; May 27th, 2007 at 09:22 AM.

  13. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by the security guard using your permit to his advantage after he already knows you have a gun, whether he sees it or whether he discovers it by some other means?
    We were not discus the security guard making you, we were discussing the guard thinking you are stealing something so they stop you. At this point he does not know you have a gun, I do not believe it is appropriate to tell this LPO because like was said earlier they may use this for their advantage. What is meant by this is If I tell one of the LPOs who is overzealous he may try to claim that I threatend to use my gun on him. I will not let him know I have a gun but will let LEO know apon arrival. I will say I know many mall ninjas, including some Vol. Firefighters who use to go and "help" mall security. These guys ha no legal authority yet they would try to stop people, how do i know plain clothed LPO is not one of these guys?
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  14. #148
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    I guess MAYBE I wouldn't tell him right off the bat either. However. If they suspect you took something enough to stop you, they're not going to just let you dictate how the situation is handled. And if they do stop you, chances are you're going to be handcuffed and probably searched. It's up to you whether you want to fight it out with them. Personally, I wouldn't, but that's just me.

    If they suspect you enough to stop you, they're not going to let you be in charge and say "OK, we won't handcuff you or search you just because you say so." Personally, I would probably just de-escalate the situation by showing them that I didn't steal anything, even though I'm not required by law to do that. And all that is assuming that the store even has a policy of letting their loss prevention people put their hands on people.

    Does anyone here have any actual experience of being physically restrained by store security after being falsely accused of shoplifting?

  15. #149
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    I don't understand what you mean by the security guard using your permit to his advantage after he already knows you have a gun, whether he sees it or whether he discovers it by some other means? Why not just show him the permit?
    I have said this many times, at least twice in this thread, so I will just summarize it briefly. I don’t steal. As a result, any LP guy who makes a stop on me has proven they are not very good at their job. I am not putting down the profession, just those who do it poorly, which, is the only kind I am ever likely to encounter. A good LP guy might make a mistake now and then, but they are going to be professional about, when it happens. That is fine with me, and an honest mistake is an honest mistake. However, if they are poorly trained or just aren’t very good at their job, there is a good chance they are already on shaky ground with their employer over previous bad stops. As a result, there is going to be a lot of temptation for them to make sure, that the stop was a good one, whether it was or not. I.E. swearing on their mother’s grave that you threatened them with the fact you had a weapon. How is that LEO going to treat you now?

    Doesn't it make you look more reasonable than the security guard when the police get there AND when you're suing the store for false imprisonment?
    I don’t plan on suing anyone, unless they do something really stupid. I would press charges against the individual if I felt their actions warranted it.

    And I understand this is only a hypothetical, but it's far more likely that you'd be spotted with your gun showing than be arrested for no reason by loss prevention people at a corporate store. Their standards are so tight as far as who the may arrest, that there are very, very few cases of someone being arrested while leaving the store after they paid for their merchandise. This certainly holds true for stores like Sears, JC Penney, etc....They've been sued so many times that if they don't see you take the stuff and exit without paying, chances are they're not going to bother you. The law says they can arrest you for larceny IN a building. You don't even have to leave the store, but most places will even wait for you to leave the store rather than take a chance of a bad arrest.
    I disagree. My weapon is not going to be on display for anyone, unless I fall down the escalator, or all my clothes are ripped off by a throng of adoring female fans who mistake me for a celebrity. (which is about as likely as it happening to the rest of you guys who are snickering right now). I would say being involved in a bad LP stop would be no more rare than having to defend yourself with your ccw weapon, but we discuss the “what ifs” of that around here all the time. I am not knocking the profession as a whole, but I think it has been a subject worthy of our attention. Especially since a less than honest LP guy could very well cost you your ccw permit if not your 2a rights altogether.

  16. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    If they suspect you enough to stop you, they're not going to let you be in charge and say "OK, we won't handcuff you or search you just because you say so." Personally, I would probably just de-escalate the situation by showing them that I didn't steal anything, even though I'm not required by law to do that. And all that is assuming that the store even has a policy of letting their loss prevention people put their hands on people.
    Oh, I'll let them look at my bag and the reciept, but I am not going to let them pat me down. If they gang up on me, put me face first into the asphalt, handcuff me and then proceed to take possesion of my weapon, I will be pressing charges. However around here at least, I have never seen handcuffs unless, the LEO's are involved.

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