You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Y'all really would hand over your weapon and allow yourself to be handcuffed by a "loss prevention professional" who saw a flash of your weapon?...

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Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #151
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    Y'all really would hand over your weapon and allow yourself to be handcuffed by a "loss prevention professional" who saw a flash of your weapon?

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  3. #152
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    Y'all really would hand over your weapon and allow yourself to be handcuffed by a "loss prevention professional" who saw a flash of your weapon?
    If I knew that he was a loss prevention guy, and that my choices were either 1.) fighting him (and his coworkers) for my gun, 2.) unloading my gun and letting him hold it til the police got there or 3.) shooting him, I might actually, in this highly-unlikely-to-happen scenario, actually let him hold the empty gun until the police got there, and later sue the store.

    But chances are, they're not not going to stop you unless they saw you take something and then leave the store with it, then they're not going to pursue you if you do not stop willingly and go along with them, but if they DO put their hands on you, they're not going to give you a choice in the matter of being cuffed, searched or disarmed. So it's a very unlikely scenario to begin with.

    Bottom line is if this highly unlikely scenario ever did take place, where they actually did physically arrest me, I wouldn't shoot a loss prevention guy for falsely arresting me. And I wouldn't let it get to the point where a struggle for my gun ensued if the alternative was to avoid getting physical and going to the back room and let them hang on to my unloaded gun until the cops came.

    Y'all really would hand over your weapon and allow yourself to be handcuffed by a "loss prevention professional" who saw a flash of your weapon?
    I would tell the guy I had a permit and show it to him if he confronted me about it. I don't see any need for it to escalate further than that unless I told him it was none of his business and he decided to try to arrest me for CCW.
    Last edited by and the; May 27th, 2007 at 05:17 PM.

  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    I guess MAYBE I wouldn't tell him right off the bat either. However. If they suspect you took something enough to stop you, they're not going to just let you dictate how the situation is handled.
    If I dictate that I will wait for police and they try to change that, then we all will deal with the physical reality of a confrontation first. Then, a legal situation AFTER THE FACT would ensue. How hard is that to understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    And if they do stop you, chances are you're going to be handcuffed and probably searched. It's up to you whether you want to fight it out with them. Personally, I wouldn't, but that's just me.
    Again, there may be an attempt to handcuff and search me. Whether it is successful for them is a matter of chance, training, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    If they suspect you enough to stop you, they're not going to let you be in charge and say "OK, we won't handcuff you or search you just because you say so." Personally, I would probably just de-escalate the situation by showing them that I didn't steal anything, even though I'm not required by law to do that. And all that is assuming that the store even has a policy of letting their loss prevention people put their hands on people.
    If they are mature and seasoned and I say I am going to call for LEO to be there, they would go along with that. If they do not, then that is just indicitive as to their next moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    Does anyone here have any actual experience of being physically restrained by store security after being falsely accused of shoplifting?
    I haven't been stopped, but I have been eyeballed many times. I hope never to be stopped, but I have my plan in place should it happen.

  5. #154
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    If I dictate that I will wait for police and they try to change that, then we all will deal with the physical reality of a confrontation first. Then, a legal situation AFTER THE FACT would ensue. How hard is that to understand?
    Considerably. What does this mean:

    "....we all will deal with the physical reality of a confrontation first."?

    Does that mean you'll shoot the guy you believe to be a store employee for trying to arrest you for shoplifting? Does it mean you'll shoot him for trying to disarm you? Does it mean you'll shoot him for trying to take you to the back office? Does it mean you'll fight him physically but not shoot him? Does it mean that before things get physical you'll tell him you have a gun and a permit? I'm not sure what you specifically mean.

    If they are mature and seasoned and I say I am going to call for LEO to be there, they would go along with that. If they do not, then that is just indicitive as to their next moves.
    It could literally take hours for the police to get there. What makes you think it's reasonable to believe that if they want to arrest you for shoplifting, they'll just stand around in the middle of the store with you? And that's assuming they don't know you have a gun. If they do, would you tell them you have a permit and show them? Or would you let them call it in as a "man with a gun" and let the cops drive there at 90mph through traffic? Do you think they'd just wait around in the middle of the store with a shoplifter AND a man with a gun?

    It's an unrealistic scenario to think that it would ever get that far if they didn't see you take anything and leave the store, but if it did happen that way......

  6. #155
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    I have not kept up on this thread, and I do not have time to go back over 152 posts. However, here is some food for thought:

    In Indiana, according to IC 35-33-1-4, any person may arrest any other person in the commission of a felony, or if the arresting party has "probable cause" to believe that the person placed under arrest has just committed a felony.

    I'm not going to try to interperet that, and I would not give my gun up to anyone but a LEO - in fact, if I was conscience enough to have any say in the matter, I would not be transported by ambulance until I turned my sidearm over to an officer I trust, period.

    Josh <><

  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    Considerably. What does this mean:

    "....we all will deal with the physical reality of a confrontation first."?

    Does that mean you'll shoot the guy you believe to be a store employee for trying to arrest you for shoplifting? Does it mean you'll shoot him for trying to disarm you? Does it mean you'll shoot him for trying to take you to the back office? Does it mean you'll fight him physically but not shoot him? Does it mean that before things get physical you'll tell him you have a gun and a permit? I'm not sure what you specifically mean.
    I will do EVERYTHING in my power physically to either: neutralize the threat or evade from the threat of someone assaulting me and trying to take me hostage against my will. THat could include, but not be limited to, yelling at the person to not assault me, calling out for help, yell "kidnap", call the police, run away from the assaulters, phyically defend myself from somebody's attempt at physically controlling me (with whatever means I had to do that).

    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    It could literally take hours for the police to get there. What makes you think it's reasonable to believe that if they want to arrest you for shoplifting, they'll just stand around in the middle of the store with you? And that's assuming they don't know you have a gun. If they do, would you tell them you have a permit and show them? Or would you let them call it in as a "man with a gun" and let the cops drive there at 90mph through traffic? Do you think they'd just wait around in the middle of the store with a shoplifter AND a man with a gun?
    When I am being physically attacked (by a civilian who is an agent for a for-profit business) when I tell someone to NOT lay their hands on me (can you say assault and battery) they have already started being unreasonable. And I don't care how long it may take. I will not abdicate my rights for convenience.

    I will only tell LEO that I have a gun and a permit when the LEO arrive.

    I don't give a razz patutie what they may or may not do. I do know for a certaintity what I will do if some civilian attempts to unlawfully detain me.

    And no, I don't look for trouble. In fact, I make sure I have my cellphone and my bluetooth headset on when in stores. That way, I can call 911 without using my hands. The 911 dispatcher can get everything on tape for the possible eventual legal situation. Again, that will happen way after the physical encounter ends.

  8. #157
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Can a loss prevention agent searchme or take my gun

    I can't see where the loss prevention agent would have the right to search me. He can call the police and I would be glad to wait for them to arrive. I would also show the prevention agent my ccw permit. If the agent pushes it past this point I would be inclined to file a lawsuit. If anyone dosen't agree with this course of action please correct me.

  9. #158
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    and the,I don't know whether you aren't reaing the posts thoroughly or not, but you keep making a lot of assumptions that don't seem to be anywhere except in your post.

    Also do you honestly believe that some lp guys who plan to "arrest"(your word not mine) you will calmly stand by while you unload your weapon. The second you touch it, they are going to be on you like stink on... well you know. Also think about this, if they choose that moment to disarm you, what is it going to look like on camera? They tell the cops "he tried to draw his gun and...". Now all of a sudden, the poorly trained, mall ninja who is playing LP for the day (once again, no disrespect for true professionals) is going to get his chance for 15 minutes of fame and look like a hero. Also the media is going to have a field day, reporting the case, and making sure to stress that you had a permit. Everytime the anti rights crowd in your state tries something new, your name will be mentioned. On the flip side, say you do unload it and hand it over, then what? "officer, he kept threatening to kill people/himself with this weapon, but I talked him down. Now you are going to get a mental evaluation as well. Is either one a likely scenario? nope, but then neither is getting hit by lightning. Oh, wait, I got hit by that once. You know what? Maybe these things DO happen and need to be thought about in advance. (BTW yes I really did survive a bolt from the blue
    at the age of 12.)

    As I have said repeatedly. Try to calm the situation down. Ask for/or call LEO's yourself. Whatever you don't let them drag you off camera, and never tell them about your weapon.

    If they do gang up on you, scream "help! Police!"/"kidnap!"/"bloody murder"/"rape"/ "please don't kill my baby!"/and "hey these are the guys who raised the price on gasoline" if it will help. Go limp and flop down on the floor like a fish. In short make one heck of a scene, and delay until the police show up.

    Notice none of these things are considered force.
    Last edited by GoodSamaritan; May 28th, 2007 at 12:06 AM.

  10. #159
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    9mm v .45 debate anyone?

    This one seems to have gone that way, multiple sides and nobody changing their mind. Everyone is just arguing their side.

    Someone says I will not be detained. Another says I will comply and because I don't steal no problem. Another tries to educate the first that resisting can lead to bad circumstances to which the first replies is not my fault and I will prevail and or run away. Some shades in between, but that's the gist of it.

    It has circled at least three times. So now we have it all out and summarized for reading at the end of this now closed post.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  11. #160
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    You are the "Shoplifter"

    I spent an hour composing this as a response to the "detain for police" thread only to find it closed when I posted So I thought I'd post it as a different scenario here. Hey I spent too much time on it to throw it away!
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Shoplifter scenario. You play the role of Gunnie. And don't think this scenario is "out there." Stranger things have happened!

    Actors:

    Gunnie, a long time CCW holder and general good guy with an independent streak and a low tolerance for BS

    Joe, store security, on the job about two year with over 100 petit larceny convictions to his credit.

    Scene:

    Gunnie is shopping for some aspirin at MegaStore. He's having considerable difficulty deciding which brand to get due to his enormous headache and back pain, which by the way, is not positively contributing to his attitude. Gunnie notices an open and empty aspirin package on the shelf and wonders what happened to the bottle inside. He's also juggling a 2 liter and a carry out plate of nachos around his oversize Hawaiian shirt.

    Around the corner comes Joe, who sees Gunnie hunched over the aspirin. (Joe may be loss prevention or contracted store security; yes which one WILL make a difference in many states and situations, for now lets assume that Joe security has statutory authority to make an honest to God arrest if he believes you are stealing merchandise; for the purposes of our discussion your state, similar to VA, has criminalized the concealment of merchandise AND gives contracted armed security officers powers of arrest). Joe knows from experience that OTC medications are a high target item for shoplifters. Bottles are frequently taken from their packaging because of anti-theft tags in the packaging.

    Just as Joe comes up behind Gunnie, he sees Gunnie pass a bottle of aspirin in front of himself but not onto the shelf. This may be due to Gunnie's oversize Hawaiian shirt billowing open, or it may be due to Gunnie slipping the aspirin in his pocket or waistband. Joe then notices the empty aspirin package on the shelf. Further, Joe has startled Gunnie with his sudden close appearance, and Gunnie makes a sudden flinching movement, just like Joe has seen thieves do previously, when they were caught in the act. Joe looks down into Gunnie's hands and at his midsection. No aspirin in sight. There is, however, an odd cylindrical bulge in Gunnie's pocket.

    Question: Probable cause is generally defined as more than suspicion, less than proof, a reasonable belief that a crime has occurred. Arrests are allowed for probable cause, not to fix blame, but to allow investigation and to prevent the escape of suspects. Arrests are not equal to convictions. Does Joe have probable cause to believe Gunnie has pocketed the aspirin?

    Joe asks Gunnie about the whereabouts of the aspirin. Note at this time there has been NO detainment or arrest. Gunnie is confused and embarrassed, and therefore appears to be avoiding Joe's line of questioning.

    Gunnie quickly recovers, though, sticking his hands in his pockets and advising Joe that he is not a thief and has no intention of complying with a search. Gunnie doesn't want Joe to see his speedloader, which Joe must have assumed was the aspirin bottle. Further, Gunnie asks that LEOs be called. How many times has Joe heard this after seeing proof of the opposite? Just last week one of Joe's associates was assaulted by a shoplifter while they were waiting for the police. Bill had let his guard down, since the shoplifter was willing to get the cops involved. Now Bill is out of work for two weeks with a sprained ankle. Joe asks Gunnie to step into the back, since these types of encounters are not considered positive advertising for MegaStore, limits actions of any accomplices, and helps prevent escapes and the ditching of evidence. Gunnie loudly proclaims his innocence and refuses to go into the back. Instead he turns to walk toward the store entrance. In that movement Joe is watching Gunnie's clothes with heightened awareness. Joe distinctly sees the outline of a revolver under Gunnie's shirt as it flips in the movement of the turn, which also hides Gunnie's hand coming out of his pocket. At the same time, Gunnie accidentally kicks a bottle of aspirin that was unfortunately lying just out of sight, sending it skidding loudly across the floor.

    At this point, Joe moves to make an arrest for "Willful concealment of merchandise," and "Possession of a concealed weapon" both Class 1 Misdemeanors. Joe jumps at Gunnie, attempting an armlock, which fails. Gunnie reaches down to protect his gun. Joe reaches down and draws his gun, feeling that an armed attack is imminent.

    Question: Did this really have to get this far?

    Question: Do you really trust Joe to hold you at gunpoint, if you can't trust him to search you or with the knowledge that you have a CCW?

    The twist: Now switch. You are Joe. You have just attempted to arrest a criminal who now is reaching for a gun. What are you going to do?


    Code of Virginia:

    § 9.1-146. Limitation on powers of registered armed security officers.

    Compliance with the provisions of this article shall not itself authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or exercise any powers of a conservator of the peace. A registered armed security officer of a private security services business while at a location which the business is contracted to protect shall have the power to effect an arrest for an offense occurring (i) in his presence on such premises or (ii) in the presence of a merchant, agent, or employee of the merchant the private security business has contracted to protect, if the merchant, agent, or employee had probable cause to believe that the person arrested had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods as contemplated by § 18.2-106. For the purposes of § 19.2-74, a registered armed security officer of a private security services business shall be considered an arresting officer.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  12. #161
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    It should NEVER have gotten that far.

    Joe is a fool to even try to "arrest" the individual after he spotted what he feels is a weapon. If I were Joe, a bottle of aspirin is not worth my life so I call pd, give them a good description, observe from a distance, and be a good and alive witness.

    The unfortunate reality of this is that most security guards I know want it to get that far. They want the "glory" of the take down. That is all they talk about at work. They wannabe cops. Funny thing is my whole family is law enforcement and all they talk about is getting home alive each night not the "glory" of the take down. I always tell the guards that if that is what they really want and they want to be tactical tommy then they should man up and go join the military and do it in Iraq or Afghanistan. They never do. I work with a LOT of security guards (50+) and there are only a handful that have a head on their shoulders and aren't a bunch of cammied up nut bags who can't stop talking about jacking people up.

  13. #162
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    Question: Did this really have to get this far?
    Over $2.98 in aspirin? Absolutely not. A guard is going to shoot an armed person in a state that acknowledges the right of citizens to carry concealed firearms, and he's going to draw a gun on suspicions? He might well get himself (or worse, the man he's attacking and attempting to arrest on false suspicions) killed.

    Question: Do you really trust Joe to hold you at gunpoint, if you can't trust him to search you or with the knowledge that you have a CCW?
    No.

    The twist: Now switch. You are Joe. You have just attempted to arrest a criminal who now is reaching for a gun. What are you going to do?
    Die like a man for my stupidity and arrogance, probably. There are ways to implement detainment of suspected shoplifters. Shoplifting of $2.98 in merchandise isn't a felonious crime nor a dangerous one, not any day of the week. It warrants little other than detainment for LEO's.

    Beneath it all, there is (or should be, in practice) a presumption of innocence. That demands a minimum level of tolerance and behavior on the part of the "authority" in question, given all of the other things that could be going on. A store + a bottle no longer seen + a guard + a non-guard <> a crime and a criminal, not by itself. And that doesn't require physical assault, an attempt at a forcible "take-down," or the "authority" drawing a gun. Not on his worst day is that justified by the mere fact he (the guard) is the "authority" figure here. In the end, he's attempting to take down a citizen. That means quite a lot, if unsupported by sufficient facts and cause to effect such a violent take-down. Death for aspirin? Not justified.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  14. #163
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    The question is whether the arrest was lawful, not the value of what was taken or whether the guy took it or not upon further investigation. In my state, that type of larceny is a felony. It doesn't matter what the value of the item is. Lots of innocent people have gone to jail based on that type of circumstantial evidence. It doesn't mean the arrest was bad.

    The case will get kicked or dismissed, or won in court and the guy will sue. Still doesn't mean the arrest was bad. Lucky nobody got killed.

    That is....unless the store security guy testifies that he saw the guy take the aspirin, conceal it in his shirt and then toss it after the arrest. Then Gunny might not win the case after all.....

  15. #164
    Senior Member Array blueyedevil's Avatar
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    I just find it unlikely that after a failed assault, where gunnie has already got skin on grip, that Mr. mall ninja is going to manage to outdraw him, there's a real good chance that gunnie has a friction retained, open top holster of some kind, while mall ninja has some type of retention holster most likely. I'm thinkin' that it would be most likely that the security guy is going to shot or held at gunpoint in the scenario you gave.

  16. #165
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    Not to appear " Mittyish " but anyone who is not an identified bonified LE person employed by a gvt agency had best not attempt to detain me in any fashon , If they draw on me i will treat it as a threat to my life and respond accordingly . At their request i will submit to going to a PUBLIC area out of the way near the cash regesters ( so as to be on vid servalance if avalabe ) and await an Officer . I will not submit to a search of my person , nor will i suffer hands on my person . Ill be polite , and comply to the best of my ability with their needs , untill they go beyond asking me for cooperation . When they in any way attempt to force compliance i will sull up on them . No matter the statute of any state on loss prevention they are not Officers , and i owe them no compliance , its a good will gesture on my part that i extend it . Officers representing any .gov from a municipality up i OWE compliance to and will also behave accordingly .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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