You are the "Shoplifter"

[and the]

Why is everyone so quick to assume that because someone has gun, they're going to win a physical confrontation? Are you going to shoot someone or even pull your gun on them for what you think is assault and battery? I wouldn't. Besides, he could very well get a face full of pepper spray as soon as he fails to cooperate, well before he starts pulling guns on people. His gun is more of a liability than an asset at that point. Or, as soon as the security guy thinks he's going for a gun, he could go right upside his head with a flashlight or a radio.

By the way....if Gunny wants to push the issue and innocent or not has given the store guy, through a set of uncontrollable circumstances, reasonable cause to arrest him for stealing the aspirin....and then goes off on the guy and starts pulling guns.....and the security guy then testifies that he SAW him take the aspirin....He's now looking at a MANDATORY 2 years for possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony. That's if the security guy and/or prosecutor pushes it. The security guy may have significant input in this area if Gunny hits him or assaults him in any way when it comes time to deal with the prosecutor or make a victim's impact statement.

Bottom line, a little bit of good will that you aren't legally obligated to give, often goes a long way.

Far out scenario? Maybe.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[bae]

This is why I shop at a local store, where the owner, all who work there, and the local law enforcement folks all know my name, and what an upstanding fellow I am.

You can take your big-box MegaStore and... well... :-)

[Redneck Repairs]

And The . I did not ever mention so much as presenting my firearm . I have instructed both Koga and PPCT arrest control . Now granted i am older , fatter , and smoke more today than i did then , but i feel i can cheat enough to prevent a draw by a loss prevention officer , and if not you would be amazed how fast i can bean the ******* with something off the shelf and while he is ducking i will be removing that inconvenient weapon or be busy getting shot if he reaches tho my hands wont stray to my waistband in an attempt to out draw without a distraction , did i mention i am slower than i used to be too lol . Howeaver if it is truely kicked up to a " Leithal force " issue , i still will not submit to a false authority . I should point out that i am one of the folks who will wait while the elderly lady goes thro my bags when the scrote alarm goes off a wall mart .. that is my choice tho and as mentioned above in a heavy vid area .
To speak to your question tho.

In fact i would kill over that mistake over thier part . I have done nothing wrong , and any attempt to take me to a " back room " forceably is nothing less than kidnapping . If they allow me to comply and wait on LE in public and video view all will be well . If not its going to be a dust up , and i will be bringing civil suit against the store .

[and the]

And The . I did not ever mention so much as presenting my firearm .

The initial scenario did:

Joe is watching Gunnie's clothes with heightened awareness. Joe distinctly sees the outline of a revolver under Gunnie's shirt as it flips in the movement of the turn, which also hides Gunnie's hand coming out of his pocket.

In fact i would kill over that mistake over thier part . I have done nothing wrong , and any attempt to take me to a " back room " forceably is nothing less than kidnapping .

Not true at all. Read the elements of the crime of kidnapping in your state. I believe it's a specific-intent crime. If there was probable cause to arrest you, whether you did anything wrong or not, and you killed the guy based on the fact that the arrest was unlawful in your opinion, and you're wrong, now you're charged with felony murder.

[ccw9mm]

Why is everyone so quick to assume that because someone has gun, they're going to win a physical confrontation?

No assumptions.

Are you going to shoot someone or even pull your gun on them for what you think is assault and battery?

Absolutely, with caveats. I'm not as spry or mobile as I once was. I have a very real disparity of force disadvantage I must deal with (leg/hip injury). If there is a physical assault on me by someone not otherwise identified as a legitimate enforcement authority, I absolutely will do what's necessary to thwart any attack by an unknown assailant, particularly if surprised and the attack goes sideways. BTDT. Not again, while I'm still breathing.

[Redneck Repairs]

Read the elements of the crime of kidnapping in your state.

I have investigated a fiew , and won prosecutions on them in my state , i think i am as well versed to speak to what constitutes the crime as anyone who cannot pass the bar can be . Colorados statute has also been reviewed in fed circuit and upheld so its a fair enough yardstick nationwide . Unlawfull detainment is false arrest , that is when you are restrained from leaving . when they move you to conceal same it becomes kidnapping . And as a last note if you wrongfully kill anyone for any reason it is murder , not homocide homocide may be justifiable . My point to my posts is that store and venue ( or casino in states such as NV ) security are not and cannot be LE with the same powers , and i for one wont cede them the same powers . They may request my compliance , but they may not compel it . I will comply untill they attempt to compel it .. such as i will keep my hands visible and go to an area which is video monitored I will not be restrained , or taken out of the public eye . other than by identified officers from a real government agency . LP and security idiots are just that if they attempt to force compliance .


Edited to add

The initial scenario did:

Quote:
Joe is watching Gunnie's clothes with heightened awareness. Joe distinctly sees the outline of a revolver under Gunnie's shirt as it flips in the movement of the turn, which also hides Gunnie's hand coming out of his pocket.

now removing your hand from your pocket is presenting a ccw .. well damm i best start kissing up to art's gramma because i am fixing to use some board inapproprate words on this logic .

[and the]

Unlawfull detainment is false arrest , that is when you are restrained from leaving . when they move you to conceal same it becomes kidnapping .

Based on the circumstances in the initial post, who said the arrest was unlawful?

Here are the elements of kidnapping in my state. How does this fit our loss prevention guy making an arrest for what he reasonably believes, based on the circumstances in the initial post (in my opinion) to be a retail fraud?

750.349 Kidnapping; "restrain" defined; violation as felony; penalty; other violation arising from same transaction.
Sec. 349.


(1) A person commits the crime of kidnapping if he or she knowingly restrains another person with the intent to do 1 or more of the following:

(a) Hold that person for ransom or reward.

(b) Use that person as a shield or hostage.

(c) Engage in criminal sexual penetration or criminal sexual contact with that person.

(d) Take that person outside of this state.

(e) Hold that person in involuntary servitude.

(2) As used in this section, "restrain" means to restrict a person's movements or to confine the person so as to interfere with that person's liberty without that person's consent or without legal authority. The restraint does not have to exist for any particular length of time and may be related or incidental to the commission of other criminal acts.

(3) A person who commits the crime of kidnapping is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for life or any term of years or a fine of not more than $50,000.00, or both.

(4) This section does not prohibit the person from being charged with, convicted of, or sentenced for any other violation of law arising from the same transaction as the violation of this section.



History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.349 ;-- Am. 2006, Act 159, Eff. Aug. 24, 2006

now removing your hand from your pocket is presenting a ccw .. well damm i best start kissing up to art's gramma because i am fixing to use some board inapproprate words on this logic .

We may be getting hung up on semantics here. When you said "presenting" I inferred that that meant "a gun was visible", not that the guy was "brandishing" or "pointing" or "handling" it.

[Redneck Repairs]

And based on YOUR description on the OP I say it is unlawfull even for an officer , there is NO pc , it barely rises to the standard or reasonable suspicion which would allow a " bonified officer " to detain long enough to id , but certainly not hold at this point . the differance is a real officer could leagaly do a pat down , and then also investigate the ccw . Howeaver at no point in your op is there any pc for an arrest . I will grant a RS standard that a LE may choose to peruse but still not a standard for detainment even by the local LE . Now had we witnessed anything actualy being pocketed , and then watched that thro checkout , and no payment was made That would be grounds for a contact by loss prevention , and in fact pc for an arrest by LE if present . Without all the links in the evidentairy chain tho , your scenerio is at best a false arrest and at worst a shooting .

Edited to add :

Sorry bud but you lined out the scenerio , and i responded to it . Ill leave the thread now as i dont want it to be closed due to each of us getting sharp . Above is my honest opinions which i will stand by anywhere in the usa . Right or wrong , tragady or not , that is how i see it anywhere i go .. You should note tho that my first tool in defusing the situation is limited compliance . i will wait on a cop , at an observable location . I dont steal things and i dont encourage that I just dont take a lot of crap from folks who have no right to hand it to me .. how serious this may get is in thier camp not mine .

[and the]

It all depends on what he thinks he saw and how he describes it to the cops who show up. Is he going to say "I saw the bottle pass in front of his billowing shirt" or is he going to say "I saw him stick the bottle in his shirt."? Is he going to say "I saw him kick a bottle of aspiring that was on the floor."? Or is he going to say "I saw the bottle drop out of his clothes and saw him try to kick it under the shelves."?

I think these circumstances could easily turn into something a lot close to probable cause than reasonable suspicion depending on how the ordinance is written. In my state, there is no need to pass any registers without paying. Once you conceal it in the store, that's enough.

[Redneck Repairs]

And I dont think you are disagreeing with me to disagree , none the less ill leave the thread , if you want my input pm me and ill talk there , i just dont want another valuable ( imho ) thread closed for a disagreement where you and i may not take offense , but the mods may need to limit discussion since it looks to be out of hand .

[TN_Mike]

That's a whole lot of "ifs" and coincidences in that scenario my friend. In fact, it is too many for me to take it seriously.

Sorry, but as soon as Gunnie kicked a bottle of aspirin that was on the floor as he was walking away, you lost my interest completely.

[Yddnac]

Redneck ... you are not someone who should be carrying a weapon.

[P95Carry]

Redneck ... you are not someone who should be carrying a weapon.

Not sure whether that is a challenge, advice or an insult - either way it does not come over at all well

[Yddnac]

Not sure whether that is a challenge, advice or an insult - either way it does not come over at all well

He just said he would KILL someone for making the mistake of trying to arrest him. That is not someone who understands the purpose of lethal force in a self defense situation.

[P95Carry]

I had not taken his meaning that literally - perhaps it was the way it had been phrased.

Agreed we do not tend to promote to talk in pure terms of killing - it is defence where justifiable. Your response was maybe also somewhat too lacking in the qualification you have since added and so came over less than well as it stood..