You are the "Shoplifter" - Page 13

You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Yddnac He just said he would KILL someone for making the mistake of trying to arrest him. No, he said he'd agree ...

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  1. #181
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yddnac View Post
    He just said he would KILL someone for making the mistake of trying to arrest him.
    No, he said he'd agree to any detainment that was respectfully and properly executed.

    For a $2.98 bottle of aspirin, nothing justifies being hogtied and being hauled into the back room. Nothing. If requested to cough up the aspirin, show the pockets or whatever, that's when it's clear a detainment is in progress.

    However, all that's been said is: there are methods to execute a detainment, and then there are methods to take it outside of camera view. The latter is not necessary, is not (in point of fact) a requirement for a citizen to submit to, and need not be acceded to prior to LEO's arriving. One need only sit down on the floor, to await arrival of the cavalry, if it comes to that. One need not submit to being forcibly hogtied, choked, beaten or whatever else happens in those back rooms. (Before you judge what's possible and snigger that it's not, first you should really get taken into the back room by facility staff, sometime, to get the snot beat out of you. BTDT. It happens, and it's not child's play. It can turn deadly, quickly.)

    Let's make it clear and simple: acceding to detainment <> resisting arrest. It's merely requiring that the detainment be done in full view.

    Like RnR, I also will not submit to forcible conduct over a minor, non-violent question when the force is designed to take it out of camera and public view. No force will be required to detain me. No force will be required to arrest me. But I will not be taken out of public view until the LEO's arrive.

    None of the above involves a weapon, by the way. However, if it comes to the singular situation of an unidentified person drawing me down, I'd have to see it for what it is: a felony deadly assault being committed, to which I will almost assuredly respond appropriately.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.


  2. #182
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    This scenario could happen, but I find it to be highly unlikely. I've worked at various WalMarts in two states. In neither state was it 'shoplifting' until the prep actually left the store. And a simple explanation by the innocent shopper would have ended the whole problem quickly.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  3. #183
    Member Array Yddnac's Avatar
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    <<Not to appear " Mittyish " but anyone who is not an identified bonified LE person employed by a gvt agency had best not attempt to detain me in any fashon>>

    Well atleast in Florida any employee or store owner can physically detain you and conduct an investigation(up to 15 minutes in length) if they have a reasonable belief you were shoplifting(which includes putting items in your pockets.) They can't put restraints on you but they do have a right to retrieve their goods - how far this goes in terms of a body search has not been tested in the courts to my knowledge.

    <<its a good will gesture on my part that i extend it>>

    It's more like the law...

    <<Unlawfull detainment is false arrest>>

    It's only unlawfull if the arresting party did not have a reasonable cause to think you were committing the crime of shoplifting. This cause can be cumulative. If you act suspiciously to a point that is less than reasonable cause, and then an employee confronts you(without arresting) and you simply start walking for the door, the noncompliance can be used to compound the previous behavior and warrant an investigation on the part of the store and a temporary detainment for you during that time.

    <<Now had we witnessed anything actualy being pocketed , and then watched that thro checkout>>

    To drive the point home, most states say that pocketing a product is the same as shoplifting; you don't have to go past the registers.

    <<Right or wrong , tragady or not , that is how i see it anywhere i go>>

    This is why I said you are not stable to be armed. Whereever you go YOU decide what the law is and will use force ? It doesn't work like that in the real world...

  4. #184
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yddnac View Post
    Whereever you go YOU decide what the law is and will use force ?
    The mischaracterization and generalization to all situations should be addressed by RR. I won't touch it, other than to say this is taking to the extreme comments about the the resisting of grossly out-of-whack force when it's not necessary or justified. Authority is not carte blanche over citizens.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  5. #185
    Member Array Yddnac's Avatar
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    ok i can see how some of yours and redneck's statements can be taken in different ways. At the same time you both seem to be pretty disparaging towards shopkeepers and security... My main point is that the greater the right the greater you should act to defend it. When you're on someone's private property (a store) and they want to keep you for 15 minutes to conduct an investigation ... it doesn't warrant much action.

  6. #186
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yddnac View Post
    At the same time you both seem to be pretty disparaging towards shopkeepers and security...
    I'm disparaging to violence against my person, under the guise of "security" when it's unnecessary and doesn't justify it. The exception is with legitimate law enforcement authorities taking control of a situation. That's completely different and not what the scenario depicted, here.

    When you're on someone's private property (a store) and they want to keep you for 15 minutes to conduct an investigation ... it doesn't warrant much action.
    I've apparently not done a good job at making myself clear: it's unwarranted violence that I will resist. It's the gun being drawn against my being legally armed. It's the putting of my life at risk for $2.98 in aspirin that's intolerable. That will be resisted.

    And none of that has anything to do with accepting a minor delay to conduct their inquiries. That's fine. That's never, ever a problem. But manhandling me into the back room is. Violence against me under the guise of authority to ask their little questions? That's a big problem. That, I won't tolerate. Please do not continue to misconstrue these comments as disparaging anyone's right to ask questions, conduct an investigation or (if I accede to it) to detain me as part of that investigation. They don't like it? They can call legitimate LEO's to arrest me.

    Questions are fine. That does not require hands on me. It's the violence against me that I won't accept. There's an inherent conflict of interest, here, when it's some "property owner" seeking to lay hands on me. Pass. I'll accept LEO authority has that right; nobody else does. Questions are fine. Hands on me, not.

    In the above, original scenario, everything's fine until the guy crosses the line and puts my life at risk with his knee-jerk reaction to my being armed. And most of my subsequent comments relate specifically (and only) to the distinction between an inquiry held out in the open versus forcibly shoving me into the back room to conduct the inquiry outside of public (and camera) view.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #187
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Oh how I want to get in the middle of this one, but I am trying to maintain good behavior right now.

    I do sense that there might be a couple of loss prevention workers here, or that there are a few who are aspiring to be.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  8. #188
    Member Array Yddnac's Avatar
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    <<conduct an investigation or (if I accede to it) to detain me as part of that investigation. >>

    Ok I'm trying not to misinterpret your statement here... but you're saying only a police officer can arrest you? Any citizen can arrest you if they have reasonable cause(filing a police report is legally an arrest,) and they can even use force in some instances (such as the shopkeeper's privilege) to ensure that arrest if there are no government peace officers present. Your choice to accede doesn't matter.

  9. #189
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yddnac View Post
    Any citizen can arrest you if they have reasonable cause(filing a police report is legally an arrest,) and they can even use force in some instances ...
    Really? Shop-keeper's privilege, eh? You should re-read the sections of your state's constitution and the U.S. constitution on citizens' rights to unreasonable search, siezure, the right to be secure in their persons, and their right to withstand bodily assault. If not going anywhere, that's detainment. It may even be an arrest. That hardly gives anyone other than those with legitimate arrest authority any right to physically manhandle an otherwise peacable citizen, on mere accusations, particularly if that citizen is sticking around as part of the questionining. Hands on a citizen who is otherwise cooperating is a very dicey business. Take some time, prior to your next posting, to understand just what sort of violation that is. Caution is due.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #190
    Member Array Yddnac's Avatar
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    well i'll come out of the closet now and say I worked as a stock clerk during college and was part of my store's loss prevention. One time a girl was eating some canned vegetables in the store, we knew she had done it before so we approached her with our manager. She tried to run, we ran after her and took her down before she exited the store(FL doesn't allow you to chase them out of the store.) In the eyes of the law we had at that point arrested her.

    That's my point, you don't need government authority to arrest someone.

  11. #191
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yddnac View Post
    <<Not to appear " Mittyish " but anyone who is not an identified bonified LE person employed by a gvt agency had best not attempt to detain me in any fashon>>

    Well atleast in Florida any employee or store owner can physically detain you and conduct an investigation(up to 15 minutes in length) if they have a reasonable belief you were shoplifting(which includes putting items in your pockets.) They can't put restraints on you but they do have a right to retrieve their goods - how far this goes in terms of a body search has not been tested in the courts to my knowledge.

    <<its a good will gesture on my part that i extend it>>

    It's more like the law...

    <<Unlawfull detainment is false arrest>>

    It's only unlawfull if the arresting party did not have a reasonable cause to think you were committing the crime of shoplifting. This cause can be cumulative. If you act suspiciously to a point that is less than reasonable cause, and then an employee confronts you(without arresting) and you simply start walking for the door, the noncompliance can be used to compound the previous behavior and warrant an investigation on the part of the store and a temporary detainment for you during that time.

    <<Now had we witnessed anything actualy being pocketed , and then watched that thro checkout>>

    To drive the point home, most states say that pocketing a product is the same as shoplifting; you don't have to go past the registers.

    <<Right or wrong , tragady or not , that is how i see it anywhere i go>>

    This is why I said you are not stable to be armed. Whereever you go YOU decide what the law is and will use force ? It doesn't work like that in the real world...
    Actaully the store owner or employee can handcuff you. Some stores may not allow employees to handcuff shoplifters but you may.

  12. #192
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yddnac View Post
    well i'll come out of the closet now and say I worked as a stock clerk during college and was part of my store's loss prevention. One time a girl was eating some canned vegetables in the store, we knew she had done it before so we approached her with our manager. She tried to run, we ran after her and took her down before she exited the store(FL doesn't allow you to chase them out of the store.) In the eyes of the law we had at that point arrested her.

    That's my point, you don't need government authority to arrest someone.
    Is that in caselaw somewhere?

  13. #193
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Really? Shop-keeper's privilege, eh? You should re-read the sections of your state's constitution and the U.S. constitution on citizens' rights to unreasonable search, siezure, the right to be secure in their persons, and their right to withstand bodily assault. If not going anywhere, that's detainment. It may even be an arrest. That hardly gives anyone other than those with legitimate arrest authority any right to physically manhandle an otherwise peacable citizen, on mere accusations, particularly if that citizen is sticking around as part of the questionining. Hands on a citizen who is otherwise cooperating is a very dicey business. Take some time, prior to your next posting, to understand just what sort of violation that is. Caution is due.
    That applies to the government search and seizures not private citizens searching or seizing you.

  14. #194
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    I suggest everyone look up their states laws pertaining to shoplifting / shopkeepers rights. Know your legal rights and stay safe.


    This topic has been beat to death, every one seems to be rehashing exactly the same sentiments as the last similar thread we had.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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