You are the "Shoplifter" - Page 2

You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; First Step: Tell the loss prevention officer "You get the cops here now". Most shoplifters dont ask for the police. When someone apraches you and ...

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Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #16
    Member Array btaulbee's Avatar
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    First Step: Tell the loss prevention officer "You get the cops here now". Most shoplifters dont ask for the police. When someone apraches you and asks or attempts to check out your person you say NO! I will wait for Law Enforcement to get here on the scene. You have a right to refuse search of your person. If they continue or grab you that is an assault and you must respond defensively (OC Spray, Surefire E2D Strke, Palm shove to nose) espically if you are carrying a firearm. No tellin what some inexpierenced loss prevention officer would do with a loaded weapon.

    Step 2: When the appropiate LE get on the scene ( Not Mall Security) you say to the officer " Officer I want you to know that I have a CCW license and I am carrying my weapon on me. What would you like me to do? Then do exactly what the officer says. It would be a good idea to have your CCW Permit and DL out before LE get on the scene so you don't go reaching for your wallet.

    Always remember you have a right to refuse consent to search your person. Always act defensively if someone advances towards you. How do you know they are legitimate LE?
    Last edited by btaulbee; December 20th, 2006 at 07:04 PM.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array razorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    Not to mention, the last thing I want is some UNTRAINED mall ninja putting his grimy paws on my cocked & locked 1911.
    damn straight. I will wait for a uniformed officer to arrive on scene and take charge from there, but the moment some rent-a-cop touches me (or my firearm), I'm pressing charges.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    I think everyone pretty much covered it...

    This situation is one I actually planned for after hearing about the aforementioned Best Buy incident. The first thing I would do is ask them to call the police. Then I would tell them (politely) that I will happily wait for police to arrive but that I will not submit to any search prior to that and if they attempt to forcibly search me, I will interpret their actions as an act of assault and will defend myself accordingly. When the police arrive, my first words would be "officer, I'm a CCW holder and I am lawfully carrying a firearm..."

    I think in most situations, remaining calm and polite and letting them know that you have no problem waiting for the police will probably keep them from doing anything stupid. If not, don't relinquish control of your weapon, and sue their socks off after the dust settles.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  4. #19
    Member Array produman's Avatar
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    First off let me tell you I am a store mgr for a large retailer in FL. The law in FL states if you set off the inventory control system(beep beep at front of store) they may detain you, this means by force if necessary. I do not do this at my store. Second, if I stop you, I know 100 % you are stealing, no doubt about it.... Third if you are stealing and get caught carrying in FL we have the 10,20,life law. In other words if you commit a crime with a weapon you get 10yrs. Shoot somebody during the crime 20 yrs, and kill somebody get life. If somebody told me they were carying legally we will let LE take are of the situation. If it were me They would never get my gun. If this did happen I would own a very large chunk of their money....My company will not allow anyone but the mgr's handle theft problems, this is to help stop lawsuits from happening.
    "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't."
    General George Patton

  5. #20
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    As a Loss Prevention officer,I would say calling or requesting the police is the best recourse. I do not search people I have on proof of shoplifting(video or physical surviellance.) Store policy state law will dictate if they can go hands on or not.
    I cannot speak for all LP, but most of my stores officers are well trained and abide by company policy. Unless we are sure you are stealing , we will not approach.
    Making threats , justified or not may not be the best course of action if confronted. It may go badly for the you physically and legally. ( the ccw holder) not to mention making other CCW holders look like reckless , dangerous folks.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array frankmako's Avatar
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    never give up your weapon, except to the police. store clerks can not search you. they can not detain you. only the police can detain you, it is called "arrest".

  7. #22
    bae
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    In the state of Washington, the common-law "shopkeeper's privilege" is set out in RCW 4.24.220 (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=4.24.220). The store *can* detain you for a reasonable amount of time, in a reasonable manner.

    I strongly suggest that the store security people should know what "reasonable" is before they lay a hand on you, or you will have a field day afterwards...

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    be very carefull, in any number of states there is a common law right to detain you, and to use reasonable force to do so... it is called "shopkeeper's priveledge"

    Another issue, you may wish to reconsider, many of the private security in my area are moonlighting LEOs... mace one and you win (a trip to the gray bar motel)

    do not allow any one other than an officer to search you...

    I would inform them I am armed, I would wait in a public area for the police...

    assault is apprehension of contact

    battery is contact

    false imprisonment is what we are discussing, maybe, if we are detained longer than a judge determines is appropriate...

    IANALY your mileage may differ...some settling may occur, weight is by volume....

  9. #24
    Member Array Tros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    99% of the loss prevention folks out there are good folks. The other 1% can be a very serious problem.
    Exactly. And most of the time the 1% will be easy to handle as well. Ask for the manager, and be calm.

    As Rocky mentioned, LPO's will act accordingly to the situation and their company policy; and in this day in age, most companies don't want their LPO's to lay a hand on the person in question.

    Simply put, in the particular scenario presented, the course of action you can take is to be as polite and calm as possible, and ask for the LEO's. Fairly simple.

    Heaven forbid the situation needed to turn into anything worse than that.
    Beretta 92FS

  10. #25
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    Good Points...

    Quote Originally Posted by davyray View Post
    This could either be a very simple situation if the store decides to keep their hands off of you and wait ffor LE, or it could get ugly. I'm not saying that someone would get shot, but any physical confrontation over the posession of a firearm is a recipe for disaster, both physical and legal.

    The one thing I took from the PDO story last year was NEVER, NEVER, NEVER agree to wait in an office or back room of the store. Wait with the manager, at the front of the store with the whole world as a witness. Also, there should be NOTHING to say until LE is on scene.

    I fall back on the fact that we are the good guys, we should have nothing to worry about and welcome LE involvement to diffuse the situation.

    Merry Christmas,

    Dave.
    While you're waiting, pick up a new car magazine...this would be a good way to spend the time...the store is about to buy you a new one!...

    OMO

    ret
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  11. #26
    Member Array Footslogger's Avatar
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    "Mall Ninja" lol

    That should have been my username on this board :)
    Dave

    "When among wild beasts, if they menace you, be a wild beast."
    -Herman Melville

  12. #27
    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    Matt, extremely well said. I couldn't agree with you more. I would say the exact same thing.... exactly the same!!!!!




    Well, maybe not exactly.... where you say,

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post

    "Sir, I understand you are telling me I am not free to leave, and I will comply but I am in doing so under duress. I will await the police in a public area, but I will not accompany you anyplace outside of public view. I have committed no crime, and this incident will have severe repercussions. I would suggest you consider very carefully the next things you plan to do or say."
    with me it might come out more like,

    "You F$%^ING IDIOT! Just try keeping me here you AS$HOLE! I'm walking out that door, and if you don't like it you can kiss my A$$"



    And then were you say,

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    "Sir, I have no information in my possession that assures me you are lawfully able to possess a firearm, and it could be a federal felony for me to provide you with one. I will not relinquish my firearm to anyone but a sworn law enforcement officer. For your own safety, do not attempt to take it by force."
    Mine would come out more like,

    "Touch me and one of us will be leaving this establishment in a body bag.... and it won't be me!"




    Of course I'm just kidding with all of that!

    Matt, I do think you said it very nicely, and I would hope I could remember to be as civil, polite, and direct if ever faced with the same situation.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

  13. #28
    bae
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    My response would be to tell the fellow: "Please address any further conversation to my attorney here.", as I point to my wife...

    I would refuse a search until law enforcement arrived on the scene. I would not attempt to flee, but I would not permit them to lay a hand on me, to search me, or to confiscate any weapons I might have on my person.

    If they at any time violated the "reasonable" guidelines that case law associates with RCW 4.24.220, I'd have my wife tear them a new one, though the actual damages would be quite small. I'm just a vengeful guy when it comes to this sort of thing :-)

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    How about..."NO"...then *you* call 911 and tell them you are being held against your will...that you are in fear for your life.....Game on!

  15. #30
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Simple:

    -Be polite, ALWAYS BE POLITE

    -Tell them you plan to wait for LE and you will do so "right here" (presumably at the entrance to the store, or other public place)

    -Call 911 yourself, inform them of the situation INCLUDING your CCW status, and keep them on the line until LEOs get there. This will provide a recording of the events and will show YOU requested LE and feel as if YOUR rights are being violated.

    -Try to avoid saying anything to store staff, and make sure you do not make any threats.

    -Inform the LEO about your CCW status, that you have done nothing wrong, and then await his instructions. Make sure you DO NOT hang up with 911 until AFTER you say this to the LEO so it too is part of the recording.

    -At this point you must submit to the LEO's instructions. If you are truly innocent, AND you remain calm and polite you will be fine. Your only worry should be what you are going to do with all the money from the lawsuit.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

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