You are the "Shoplifter" - Page 3

You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree 100% with PolarBear! Hadn't really thought about this until this post, but after some thought I think he hits it on the head!...

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Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #31
    New Member Array swavy00's Avatar
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    I agree 100% with PolarBear!

    Hadn't really thought about this until this post, but after some thought I think he hits it on the head!


  2. #32
    Member Array Tros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    -At this point you must submit to the LEO's instructions.
    The dispatch is not a LEO. They might recommend a course of action, but thats it. The officer that shows up is the person you must listen to.

    Either way, I'm just splitting hairs. The rest of your post was spot on. Explaining yourself over a recording is about the best proof you can have if you ever actually need to use it in court.
    Beretta 92FS

  3. #33
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    Tros the way I read it is that you would respond to the on scene LEOs instructions.

    In MO it is simple. If they should become aware that I am armed and want my gun I will ask them for their PTA (Permit To Acquire). See you cannot hand them your gun without receiving a PTA or you have violated MO law. A technicality, but one I would employ.

    Otherwise I think Polar Bear hit it.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biloxi Bersa View Post
    They have no right to detain you.

    Errrr...you might want to hold off on giving legal advice. In some states, they do have the legal right to detain you and even use force to do so. In some states, loss prevention officers (store detectives, store security, etc) have the exact same legal authority as police officers when working on store property. Additionally, some store security officers are actually law enforcement officers working a 2nd job and, in many cases, they carry their standard authority with them on the security job through state law. If you are truly concerned about the possibility of something like this happening, the best bet is to familiarize yourself with your OWN STATE LAW regarding the rights of store owners and private security on private property. Making assumptions about what they can or cannot legally do could land you in jail or worse. I know of at least one major foodstore chain that allows plainclothes loss prevention officers with a CCW permit to carry firearms when working.
    Gonzo
    PS - Nope, I don't work in loss prevention, nor have I ever done so. Dealt with them quite a bit as a cop, however.
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSSZ View Post
    I'll wait for the LEO's......BUT (!!!).....nobody touches me.
    That's about it. The mere asking (or even demanding) by another citizen isn't sufficient grounds; they don't have such authority, regardless of how rabidly against rightful carry they may be.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    As covered in other posts, many, many states and cities have laws giving store owners the right to "reasonable detention". With regard to moonlighting, check state laws, but in the jurisdictions I have experience in, if the officer is acting as a sworn officer, he must be in uniform- this will depend on state law and departmental policy. If not in uniform, or otherwise clearly designated as a sworn officer (your state may be different), he's no different than Jimmy Bob of Fells Wargo. Worth knowing and checking. I ran a shoplifter who was apparently blind (my money was on "incredibly stupid") for fighting with what he said he thought was a LP, but was a City LE, in uniform. ouch.........

  7. #37
    Member Array katmandoo122's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankmako View Post
    never give up your weapon, except to the police. store clerks can not search you. they can not detain you. only the police can detain you, it is called "arrest".
    Not true. Almost every state in the union has some sort of detention law for citizens, whether it is the office citizen's arrest or a shopkeeper's privilege.

    Now, searching is a different matter. They can ASK you what is on your person but forcing it is a different matter.

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    I re-emphasize my point--say "no"...then call 911...tell 911 you are being held against your will (true statement) and then start asking the people who are detaining you their names...get it on the recording...wait for officer to show up.

    This assumes: 1--you did not steal anything; 1a--your kids didn't steal anything

    Apply state tort law accordingly...repeat as necessary.

    Mike in VA

  9. #39
    Member Array pappy's Avatar
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    I used to work at a store with "security" But anyway, I know I watched a few people get busted for it, all the security did was call the police and escort the person to a back room and made them sit there until the real police arrived. Now that was with a willing person (which I'm guessing most of us in here would be). But if you decided to run, the security isn't going to pat you down. They might chase after you and "help" you trip and fall down. They aren't even allowed to really "tackle" anyone to the floor, even if they are running. Plus most are so untrained, that if they did see you have a gun, or even a knive they are usually trained to just let the person go and give the cops the best description of the person and vehicle that they can. They don't want a gun fight in the middle of the store over a pack of gum.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    All this bluster won't stand up in VA, if the security officer is armed. He has full authority to arrest and search. Having worked many shoplifting details in my time, I can tell you that you will be in a fight for your life if the SO encounters resistance and finds out that you are armed. With five years experience, and over 200 arrests, I relieved several suspects of their weapons, and got in more than a few grappling matches. Remember, the prime drive of the SO between contact and magistrate is officer safety. Don't make him invoke the "I'm going home at the end of my shift" doctrine. I suggest, as stated, know the laws of your state, but do not assume that your opponent is similarly enlightened. Sometimes being right is not better than being beat down and cuffed, or worse, dead.

    Politeness will win the day here. If you calmly explain that you do not wish your CCW to be handled by someone who is unfamiliar with the manual of arms, I'm sure some mutually beneficial agreement can be worked out, but in the end, if the SO feels threatened, COMPLY and seek relief LATER! Complain to his boss, store corporate, sue if you must, just remember that he is someone with a lot more in common with you than most other people in the neighborhood.

    I posted some info a while back about this very situation happening to my wife. She was shopping at WM, had a CCW in her purse, store employee approached and asked her to empty her handbag. She refused. They threatened to call LEOs. She suggested that they do so. Waited at front of store. LEO shows up, takes her outside, she explains about the CCW. Empties purse in front of employees on LEO's car hood. No stolen merchandise, but employees FREAK OUT when the H&K USP comes out. Accuse her of attempting an armed robbery. LEO not-so-politely informs them that they are idiots. Cuts her loose. Employees ask LEO to stay and protect them from her. More not-so-nice commentary from LEO. Wife finishes shopping, employees go hide.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  11. #41
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    In Texas citizens do have authority to make arrest/detentions under certain circumstances: any "Breach of the Peace or Felony commited in their presence" or CCP 18.16 "Preventing the Consequences of Theft" (which pretty much covers shoplifting/thefts). Be sure you know the laws concerning this area in your respective state. In Texas they may also "handcuff" you for their safety until a LEO arrives to investigate. (they have no authority to take your weapon unless you pose an immediate threat, so keep it as civil as possible) They better be very sure that you commited the theft (ie. actually saw you steal item), otherwise you have a strong lawsuit, IMHO.
    A Wise Man Changes His Mind, but a Fool Never Does

  12. #42
    Member Array Leadslinger's Avatar
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    In most states yes you can be "detained" for shoplifting......
    BUT heres the catch: If you haven't done anything wrong they have NO RIght to detain you. If they do detain you "against your will" by physically touching you ...... You have a serious civil lawsuit.
    Some stores, because of this, will not even allow the Loss prevention agents to touch you in any manner and they can only verbally ask for your cooperation. Other stores allow the loss prevention staff to do whatever is necessary (including force and handcuffs) to detain you.
    I personally know one think for sure ..... If I haven't done anything wrong (and I won't) Heaven help anyone trying to hold me against by will.
    As far as surrendering my gun ........ Yeahhh right
    A LTTLE TRAINING IS A DANGEROUS THING ....

  13. #43
    Member Array Tros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    Tros the way I read it is that you would respond to the on scene LEOs instructions.
    Yes sir. I'd be polite to the LPO and do as much as I felt comfortable with, but I would not hand over my weapon because dispatch told me to.

    The dispatchers (at least for here, I'm not sure about other locations) are not LEOs. They have no training in law enforcement and are simply hired from the street, tested, and then have a job.
    Beretta 92FS

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Tough and potentially very ugly situation. No one is manhandling me, but I'm not going to be looking for a fight or to be escalating the situation.

    I guess I call 9-1-1 and ask for the cops, quick.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    All this bluster won't stand up in VA, if the security officer is armed. He has full authority to arrest and search. Having worked many shoplifting details in my time, I can tell you that you will be in a fight for your life if the SO encounters resistance and finds out that you are armed. With five years experience, and over 200 arrests, I relieved several suspects of their weapons, and got in more than a few grappling matches. Remember, the prime drive of the SO between contact and magistrate is officer safety. Don't make him invoke the "I'm going home at the end of my shift" doctrine. I suggest, as stated, know the laws of your state, but do not assume that your opponent is similarly enlightened. Sometimes being right is not better than being beat down and cuffed, or worse, dead.
    If he's armed, and removed my property after my stated objection, based on his threat of force, he's going to be testing the "when your shift is over, go to jail for armed robbery" doctrine. Followed by the civil liability theory.

    Because when the searches are done, and no store property turns up, he's going to be in a world of hurt - he used the threat of force, while armed, to remove my property from me against my will.

    I will remain in a public place against my will, after making it clear I am doing so against my will.

    If I am not attempting to leave, the SO - armed or not - has absolutely no cause or reason to initiate the use of force. Or to make any physical contact whatsoever. His purpose in preventing my leaving until the actual police arrive has been accomplished.

    Matt
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