You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MattLarson And conversely, if you are the completely innocent, lawfully armed civilian, this unwarranted physical assault, coupled with a potentially unqualified person ...

Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 194

Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array walvord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    St. Charles County Missouri
    Posts
    991
    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    And conversely, if you are the completely innocent, lawfully armed civilian, this unwarranted physical assault, coupled with a potentially unqualified person trying to gain control of your firearm puts you into survival mode. If at this point, the LP officer is using force despite my stating I will remain and await a sworn officer, I will have serious questions about that individual's mental stability. And I will not meekly let someone who is acting like that gain control of a firearm.



    And you have also committed battery, and if you have taken something from that person, robbery.

    My firearm is not store property, and you have no right to take it from me so long as I am not attempting to draw it or acting in an aggressive manner.



    And you'd best get a good attorney, because at this point, you have assaulted, battered and possibly robbed an innocent person. You may even have done these things under color of authority. Your "probable cause" has just taken a huge hit, since you failed to uncover any actual crime.

    You have also exposed your employer, and the property owners, to a major liability issue.

    This is not to say that every encounter with loss prevention is going to go this way. I have been approached a couple of times after the electronic inventory control system alarmed. The person was polite, there was no getting grabby, and the matter was resolved in matter of moments, in an amicable fashion and that was the end of it.

    However, had one of those folks simply run up and grabbed me, without a verbal discussion first, it would have been very different.



    And I will do so, to include remaining in a public place awaiting the arrival of a sworn law enforcement officer. I will make it very clear, in a polite but firm manner, that I am remaining against my will and that I am not in any way waiving my right to bring civil or criminal legal action against all involved.

    As an innocent party, I am not going to just bend over and take whatever the store thinks they should be allowed to get away with.



    So is assaulting and battering the innocent.



    Correct - and the possession of a weapon by the LP officer while unlawfully assaulting, battering and taking another's property may - and should - also be a separate charge. Nowhere does the right to detain also carry with it the right to deploy unnecessary force. And if the person being falsely accused does not make any attempt to flee, no force is necessary to prevent their flight.

    At the end of this rainbow, I know I have not stolen anything nor concealed any merchandise. When all is said and done, I will be walking out of the store with my property - including my lawfully carried firearm.

    And the LP officer - and his bosses - had best be looking for competent counsel and praying vigorously to the deity of their choice. Because if I am accosted in this fashion, I am certainly going to vigorously pursue all lawful avenues of redress.

    Matt
    Amen Matt! Exactly the way I feel 100%
    The most exhilarating thing in life is getting shot at with no results.
    - Winston Churchill
    Endowment Life Member - NRA
    Life Member - GOA
    Member - Oath Keepers, SAF, CCRKBA
    U.S. Army (72G) 1975-1980

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #62
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arapahoe County CO
    Posts
    1,790
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    With five years experience, and over 200 arrests, I relieved several suspects of their weapons, and got in more than a few grappling matches.
    Please provide some numbers. Of the "several suspects", how many had the suspected stolen merchandise, and how many were totally innocent of whatever was suspected?

    After reading your posts, I may never enter a store again.

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    568
    Quote Originally Posted by popo22 View Post
    In Texas citizens do have authority to make arrest/detentions under certain circumstances: any "Breach of the Peace or Felony commited in their presence" or CCP 18.16 "Preventing the Consequences of Theft" (which pretty much covers shoplifting/thefts). Be sure you know the laws concerning this area in your respective state. In Texas they may also "handcuff" you for their safety until a LEO arrives to investigate. (they have no authority to take your weapon unless you pose an immediate threat, so keep it as civil as possible) They better be very sure that you commited the theft (ie. actually saw you steal item), otherwise you have a strong lawsuit, IMHO.

    I believe in Texas, not only must they have seen you take the item, but you must attempt to leave the store and in between you taking the item and leaving, they must have you under contionuous unbroken surveillance.

    If they find nothing when you leave, they obviously did not follow the above and would be in some trouble.

    All said though, I would say comply with the detention, call LEO but no search.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    568
    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    Please provide some numbers. Of the "several suspects", how many had the suspected stolen merchandise, and how many were totally innocent of whatever was suspected?

    After reading your posts, I may never enter a store again.
    I don't know, thats something in the order of one every nine days. I can see that as a reasonable rate of nabbing shoplifters. It's been a looong time since I worked in retail (was still in school then) and our LP guy nabbed shoplifters more frequently than that. And they all had gear on them.

  6. #65
    Senior Member
    Array sojourner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,054

    this make my blood boil

    almost as much as the no knock warrant executions.

    All the LP "veterans", all you are doing is putting your arse out on the line to protect the bottom line of some corporate entity. Well done. Feel good about what you are doing? Happy to risk injury/death/lawsuits to keep the bottomline black and not red???

    I will remain as polite as possible without abdicating my rights. I cannot control the outcome, only my actions. The instant that someone gets grabby with me against my will, we go from zero to thermonuclear in a heartbeat. I'm in survival mode, the LP "veteran" is in survival mode and all we have is who is more/better trained. Game on. Someone will be incapacitated, that's about the only thing I can guarantee.

    And all this because an incompetent store management/cashier didn't turn off that damn beeping thing when I leave the store. I estimate that 50% of every time I leave the store I have to turn around to have my bag checked because some lame incompenent goober cannot deactivate the security.

  7. #66
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Houston
    Posts
    568

    Another Security Officer's experiences

    Just make sure you don't run in to this guy

    http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

  8. #67
    Member Array amax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    112
    great post gets the wheels spinning
    Kimber S/S tle pro

  9. #68
    New Member Array tomkkk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Port Orange, Fl
    Posts
    6
    While I understand folks' reluctance to tolerate any sort of hands on restraint or, worse, being searched and/or relieved of their weapon, it seems to me that it would be pretty hard to justify anything approaching "survival mode" with a duly constituted security guard, regardless of their stupidity. It's a pretty big stretch to be able to successfully claim being in any real danger, certainly not enough to justify any action on your part. Regardless of the legal technicalities that might be in my favor, I guess I'd pretty much do what they demanded within reason and let my lawyer deal with it later.
    Springfield XD9SC
    Walther P22

  10. #69
    Member Array NUCGUY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    28
    Well just as many of you have stated hands on is a no-no unless they are a LEO. Then I would advise him of the firearm prior to his actual hands on. If by some chance a store employee does attempt I would simply keep distance and attempt to deescelate the situtation as much as possible. Turning the firearm over to a non LEO would not happen.
    Improvise, Adapt, Modify, and Overcome

  11. #70
    bae
    bae is offline
    Member Array bae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    San Juan Islands
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by tomkkk View Post
    it seems to me that it would be pretty hard to justify anything approaching "survival mode" with a duly constituted security guard,
    How do I know the 18 year old mall-ninja security guard is "duly constituted"? Or has the training to safely handle my firearm? Or is allowed to even handle one? Where is the mall-ninja going to safely even put the weapons I am carrying?

    I'm a law-abiding citizen, wealthy, and have some political pull. I'm not handing over my weapons to some minimum-wage flunky because he thinks I'm stealing some $3.00 piece of imported junk his store sells. I'm not going to submit to being handcuffed, or led off out of public view either...

    We can politely wait for a real law enforcement officer to show up.

    Regardless of the legal technicalities that might be in my favor, I guess I'd pretty much do what they demanded within reason and let my lawyer deal with it later.
    Lucky me, my lawyer is usually standing right next to me, and she is generally armed as well :-)

  12. #71
    Senior Member
    Array sojourner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,054

    Jeez

    It just gets to me that there are people on this forum that would follow the "from my cold dead hands" and on the other hand want to abdicate their rights to a loss prevention "officer". Gawd, you might as well give up your firearms to Pelosi right now.

    Anyone wanting to abdicate their constitutuonal rights to a lp "officer" (only concerned with the profitibility of a corporation) deserve what happens to them.

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kommie-fornia-stan
    Posts
    6,999
    Wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round....
    'round and 'round
    'round and 'round

    Wheels on the thread go 'round and 'round all through the town...

    Has this been beaten to death yet?

    ...Hands off...Mall ninja stays back, call 911, take names, wait for the professionals...

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Puerto Rico
    Posts
    911
    Know the law.

    From experience, paramedic70002 is right:

    § 9.1-146. Limitation on powers of registered armed security officers.

    Compliance with the provisions of this article shall not itself authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or exercise any powers of a conservator of the peace. A registered armed security officer of a private security services business while at a location which the business is contracted to protect shall have the power to effect an arrest for an offense occurring (i) in his presence on such premises or (ii) in the presence of a merchant, agent, or employee of the merchant the private security business has contracted to protect, if the merchant, agent, or employee had probable cause to believe that the person arrested had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods as contemplated by § 18.2-106. For the purposes of § 19.2-74, a registered armed security officer of a private security services business shall be considered an arresting officer.

    Also, watch out, in some states there may be a similar law:

    § 18.2-105.1. Detention of suspected shoplifter.

    A merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, who has probable cause to believe that a person has shoplifted in violation of § 18.2-95 or § 18.2-96 or § 18.2-103, on the premises of the merchant, may detain such person for a period not to exceed one hour pending arrival of a law-enforcement officer.

  15. #74
    Senior Member
    Array sojourner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,054
    Quote Originally Posted by cagueits View Post
    Know the law.

    From experience, paramedic70002 is right:

    § 9.1-146. Limitation on powers of registered armed security officers.

    Compliance with the provisions of this article shall not itself authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or exercise any powers of a conservator of the peace. A registered armed security officer of a private security services business while at a location which the business is contracted to protect shall have the power to effect an arrest for an offense occurring (i) in his presence on such premises or (ii) in the presence of a merchant, agent, or employee of the merchant the private security business has contracted to protect, if the merchant, agent, or employee had probable cause to believe that the person arrested had shoplifted or committed willful concealment of goods as contemplated by § 18.2-106. For the purposes of § 19.2-74, a registered armed security officer of a private security services business shall be considered an arresting officer.

    Also, watch out, in some states there may be a similar law:

    § 18.2-105.1. Detention of suspected shoplifter.

    A merchant, agent or employee of the merchant, who has probable cause to believe that a person has shoplifted in violation of § 18.2-95 or § 18.2-96 or § 18.2-103, on the premises of the merchant, may detain such person for a period not to exceed one hour pending arrival of a law-enforcement officer.
    Know the immediate physical reality, "I will remain as polite as possible without abdicating my rights. I cannot control the outcome, only my actions. The instant that someone gets grabby with me against my will, we go from zero to thermonuclear in a heartbeat. I'm in survival mode, the LP "veteran" is in survival mode and all we have is who is more/better trained. Game on. Someone will be incapacitated, that's about the only thing I can guarantee."

    The law will sort things out after the fact.

  16. #75
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    East Tennessee
    Posts
    248
    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    All the LP "veterans", all you are doing is putting your arse out on the line to protect the bottom line of some corporate entity. Well done. Feel good about what you are doing? Happy to risk injury/death/lawsuits to keep the bottomline black and not red???
    They are doing their chosen profession/job to the best of their ability and training. Why slam someone because of their chosen LEGITIMATE job? We all pay the price for shoplifting, the most common, most costly form of theft.
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. "Blue Force Gear" and "eCop! Police Supply" Review
    By Medic218 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 30th, 2012, 05:31 PM
  2. (Open carry) "Help, Officer, he brandished his weapon at me!"..."No i didn't!!"
    By RR9501 in forum Open Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: October 9th, 2010, 01:48 PM
  3. Smith & Wesson Model 40 "Classic" "Lemon Squeezer"
    By randytulsa2 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: February 10th, 2008, 05:30 AM
  4. A True Texas Tale: "Bad Guy" "One", "Old Man" "Zero"
    By Rock and Glock in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: March 17th, 2006, 08:50 AM

Search tags for this page

18.2.96 best defense method
,

can a guilty shoplifter sue wal mart

,

can i.sue walmart loss prevention if they touch me even.if i.am convicted of shoplifting

,
can loss prevention grad or touch shoplifters in nc
,

can loss prevention touch you

,

crotch walking shoplifting

,
csn you be charged with a misdemeanor and then they change it to a class d felony
,
does meijer prosecute shoplifters
,
how many shoplifters carry weapons
,
refuse search shoplifters
,
what can loss prevention not do when they apprehend ashoplifter
,
will meijer compile a case against you for shoplifting
Click on a term to search for related topics.