You are the "Shoplifter" - Page 6

You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just before thread lock-up... Let me say that when I clicked "Post Quick Reply" I thought my post would be the # 41. Other than ...

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  1. #76
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    Just before thread lock-up...

    Let me say that when I clicked "Post Quick Reply" I thought my post would be the # 41. Other than that, I still think what para said is right on, and that the physical reality that most of us will experience with a good LP/SO will end up on a favorable note.

    On the other hand, if you find yourself in danger, go ahead and defend yourself - you'll have your day in court (if you don't get killed by responding LP/SO/LE), spend close to $20k on legal fees, and probably end up with a misdeameanor (if you're lucky) or a felony conviction (loosing your priviledge to own firearms - yeah priviledge, we don't have the right to own firearms until SCOTUS decides something contrary to the US vs Miller issue or congress passes a law/constitutional ammendment that clarifies the problem).

    Just calm down, tell security that everything is a misunderstanding and that you will cooperate, flip the phone open and dial 911/611 or local LE # - let LE sort out the problem. Besides, most locations that use LP/SOs will have CCTv recording what you are doing, they won't touch you unless you refuse to stay put after either party contacts LE - it's gona be pretty hard to argue that you didn't know they had powers to arrest/detain you (how it goes?... ignorance is no excuse for not following the law?).

    Lighten up and get ready to enjoy some vacations at the business' expense (after you sue them in court and they settle), at the State Penitentiary (in case you loose in court) or wherever it is you go when you die (heaven, paradise, hell, Walmart, reincarnate into a snail, ect).

    Just my 2 cents.


  2. #77
    AAR
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    This happened to me a long time ago. I was walking out of some store when a uniformed security guard said "sir can I search your back pack" I smiled at him and said "nope".... and kept walking.

    I had done nothing wrong so I kept walking, no big deal.

    AR

  3. #78
    Member Array Smooth23's Avatar
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    I was about 16 walking out of a Meijer store(It's like wal-mart for those that don't know) one evening when a SO comes up to me and puts one hand on my shoulder and reaches another for my waistband in the small of the back. Noticed someone walking toward me fast and got way to close, soon as he touched me I spun around and backfisted him in the nose and put him into a headlock and submitted him to the ground pretty fast. Once I had him on the ground (maybe 2 seconds?) I saw another (manager with store id tag)guy running after me saying, "Stop!", at which point I let him up. After learning he was SO I kind of freaked out and was real apologetic(for giving the guy a bloody nose) and accompanied them to an office of some sort. I let them search me and they found nothing. After a few minutes I found out that the SO had seen me pulling up my pants from the rear and thought I was stuffing some merchandise down them. Nothing came of it and before I left me and the SO that tried stopping me shook hands with no (real) harm done.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Only Glock View Post
    They are doing their chosen profession/job to the best of their ability and training. Why slam someone because of their chosen LEGITIMATE job? We all pay the price for shoplifting, the most common, most costly form of theft.
    As long as they, in their chosen profession, do not in any way/shape/form attempt to detain/control/search me against my will. That is where the police come in. I will wait in a public place for a uniformed officer, but will not submit to anyone touching me.

    Not everyone has had the displeasure of being accused of shoplifting/stealing. It is not a fun experience.

    And for anybody who wants to give up their rights to a LP "officer", as I've said, they will get what they deserve.

  5. #80
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    I posted this story once before but couldn't find it, to link to it.
    My job has me in and out of a lot of stores. I have seen more than a few LP stops. They ranged from, “May I see your receipt?” to several store employees chasing someone across the parking lot and grabbing at their clothing.
    The one that always comes to mind is one where I was nearly run down by a screaming lady, being chased by store security. (Aka LP) As it turns out, she had nothing on her. The manager apologized and made the LP guy do likewise. As soon as the manager went back inside the building, the LP guy whirled around and threatened this lady if he ever saw her in “HIS” store again.

    LEO shows up, takes her outside, she explains about the CCW. Empties purse in front of employees on LEO's car hood. No stolen merchandise, but employees FREAK OUT when the H&K USP comes out. Accuse her of attempting an armed robbery.
    I wonder how things would have turned out if she had let them search her purse in a back office somewhere and they freaked out. They accused her of armed robbery when it became known she had a weapon with the LEO there. I wonder how they might have embellished their away from witnesses?

    As I have said before in other posts, I have no problem with a pro, even one who makes an honest mistake. Having said that, guys like the ones in the above stories are very bad news. I for one will not reveal the presence of my weapon, or worse hand it over. Let’s face it. Almost none of us will ever have to deal with a pro because we won’t be stealing anything. Anyone who tries to stop one of us will by definition not be very good at their job in the first place.

    This topic seems to make the rounds once a year or so, and always seems to bring out emotional responses. I believe as someone said earlier, “cooler heads prevail”is good advice. Be polite, but firm. Insist on staying where there are cameras and other customers around

  6. #81
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    Please provide some numbers. Of the "several suspects", how many had the suspected stolen merchandise, and how many were totally innocent of whatever was suspected?

    After reading your posts, I may never enter a store again.
    Well, that was a long time ago, I recall mostly knives, a boxcutter, a few improvised blades/pointy objects. I could tell you LOTS of stories on the stupidity of shoplifters!
    I only ever detained one person on probable cause that had no merchandise, he was one of only a handful that I used probable cause on, just because it is so tricky. He was super cooperative, which means he either knew how to play the game, or he was guilty and dumped the item or had it so well concealed I couldn't find it.

    As an aside, shoplifters weren't my only vocation. I split my time between them, and various other asignments. Residential, construction sites, fast food, car lots, you name it. Most shoplifting assignments were in high crime areas, grocery stores, five hour shifts, and one of those hours was after closing. I could usually get 1 or 2 per shift. Factor in the time it takes to process your prisoner (paperwork, going to the magistrate), and I actually didn't spend too much time on the hunt. The argument can be made that less property would have been stolen if we had just recovered it and sent the thief on his way, but I figured that criminal charges were a better deterrent. Third petit larceny turns into a felony, which brings in the Commonwealth's Attorney. Only ever let one person go with a warning. Old lady had a bottle of Tylenol in her cart with a sale paper on top of it. Tried to walk out of the store that way. Had a little bit of doubt in my mind that she was trying to steal, so I cut her loose. I would usually tell my prisoners to go back to the hood and spread the word that the "Shoplift Team" was working hard, and to take their activities elsewhere. It seemed to work. When we'd start a new store, the thieves were brazen. Walk straight to the meat, grab a few packs, stuff them in a coat, walk straight back out. After a few fights and several court dates, it got a little trickier to catch them. Techniques? Just being about in plainclothes didn't work too well for me. Big tall white guy shopping in the ghetto? NOT! So I'd peek around corners, stand in the darkened meat department, peek through the stockroom doors, sometimes just loiter around the meats/alcohol/pharmacy, watch the surveillance cameras. Once I stood behind a lifesize human cutout. I should have got the employees to build a 12-pack fort with peek holes! Takes pure luck to observe a concealment by chance, so you profile by activity/item, as I've previously mentioned. Sometimes a thief would be so bold as to try the hit and run. As soon as I'd see this, I would sprint to the front of the store and cut him off while he was still on his way up the aisle. More often than not, the items would have disappeared. Most concealments are done casually, a simple slip as they walk up the aisle. Did have a few do the "lookaround" first. What amazed me the most was the total ease of theft, the lack of concern toward stealing. And some of these folks were amazing. Bottle of MD 20/20 under a white t shirt at the belt buckle. Tube of sausage up the coat sleeve. Family packs of pork chops down the crotch (With many more found outside behind the dumpster). One guy trying to steal a cheap steak, had almost $200 in his wallet, worked for Newport News Shipbuilding. That larceny conviction probably cost him his security clearance, and his job. Once I walked up to the register and picked a pack of smokes up off the display. The customer in front of me watches me do this. I reply, "Hi!" Just being friendly. Only he thinks I've got the drop on him. Nervously pulls out a pack of smokes from his shirt pocket and stammers out that he was going to pay for them. Wow! Probably 10 % of my arrests resulted in additional charges. Resisting arrest, possession of drugs/paraphernalia, concealed weapons, outstanding warrants. Another time I had just walked from the front of the store to set up behind the stockroom door. Get a frantic PA call for security to the register. Had an armed robbery within 30 seconds! OK, I find myself telling war stories. Oops! I will point out that although teenage girls are the most prolific shoplifters by profile, that was not my experience. Probably because they'd rather hit the mall. Most of my arrests were regular adults. And I sorta felt bad about busting somebody that was getting groceries for their family, but it wasn't my job to hand out free food.
    One lady tried to BLAME her kid for slipping stuff in her purse!

    I see many references here to the real police. It seems obvious here that there is a bias against private security, who by the way, don't consider themselves to be not-real-police, they are security, a similar but not "just like" profession. How many of you "I haven't done anything wrong so nobody is touching me" types would feel the same way if a LEO was giving the orders? I see it a lot on the TV show "cops", and it rarely goes well for the suspect. Do you believe that only LEOs allowed to detain, frisk and seize property? That kind of thought seems more counter to the Constitution and Color of Authority than this heartburn with private security. Remember, other than the arest power, private security is not really threatening your civil rights, which are functions of the government. As an agent of the business, he can tell you to be quiet, follow the rules, no firearms allowed on the property, or leave the property. An LEO, as a government agent, has no such authority or power.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  7. #82
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Do you believe that only LEOs allowed to detain, frisk and seize property? As an agent of the business, he can tell you to be quiet, follow the rules, no firearms allowed on the property, or leave the property.
    My heartburn comes from having anything touched, and having it touched out of the view of witnesses, where anything can happen.

    Just calm down, tell security that everything is a misunderstanding and that you will cooperate, flip the phone open and dial 911/611 or local LE # - let LE sort out the problem.
    That's about it. Until then, I will not be cuffed/searched; I will remain in public view, with witnesses; I will otherwise react calmly and await an LEO, if for nothing other than to have another witness who is versed in law and not in the paid employ of the business. Disrespectful of security types? Not really. It's simple refusal to be disarmed by someone who cannot immediately validate my right to carry and be where I am.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  8. #83
    Senior Member Array razorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smooth23 View Post
    Noticed someone walking toward me fast and got way to close, soon as he touched me I spun around and backfisted him in the nose and put him into a headlock and submitted him to the ground pretty fast.
    Last edited by razorblade; December 24th, 2006 at 01:30 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    I see many references here to the real police. It seems obvious here that there is a bias against private security, who by the way, don't consider themselves to be not-real-police, they are security, a similar but not "just like" profession. How many of you "I haven't done anything wrong so nobody is touching me" types would feel the same way if a LEO was giving the orders? I see it a lot on the TV show "cops", and it rarely goes well for the suspect. Do you believe that only LEOs allowed to detain, frisk and seize property? That kind of thought seems more counter to the Constitution and Color of Authority than this heartburn with private security. Remember, other than the arest power, private security is not really threatening your civil rights, which are functions of the government. As an agent of the business, he can tell you to be quiet, follow the rules, no firearms allowed on the property, or leave the property. An LEO, as a government agent, has no such authority or power.
    If a sworn LEO issues an instruction, then I am required by law to comply.

    If a private citizen who happens to work for a store gives me an instruction, I am not required to comply with it. Particularly when that instruction grossly exceeds their authority. Such as ordering me to surrender my lawfully carried firearm.

    Like I said above, 99% of the folks working in loss prevention are not the problem, and I doubt that many of them would utilize force on an individual who has agreed to remain and await the police.

    The 1% are the issue. The ones who will use force for the sake of using force. The ones who will initiate a lethal force encounter by trying to forcibly take a firearm from an innocent, law abiding citizen.

    You have to remember that just as the LP person comes into the situation with a certain mindset (i.e. that I am a criminal), I also come into it with a certain mindset (I have committed no crime, and the LP officer is making a false allegation).

    As I said before, at the end of this little party, I know I will be going home, with my firearm, facing no charges - because I have done nothing wrong.

    It is up to the LP person and their manager as to the rest. As you noted, when an innocent person is approached, it gets dicey for the store.

    As to the question of detention, arrest, searching and seizing property, I have never seen a statutory authorization for a private security person to remove property that does not belong to the store.

    My firearm is not store property, and it is not contraband (since I lawfully own it and am lawfully carrying it). If I have not acted in a threatening manner, there is absolutely no justification for a private security guard to take it from me. The taking of property from another's person against their will is robbery, and I would certainly be filing a sworn complaint for same. Remember, I have done nothing wrong.

    It would be no different if I walked up to the security guard and demanded his / her weapon, "for my own safety".

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  10. #85
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    It seems obvious here that there is a bias against private security,
    Why is it, when somone says anything about a security guard/loss prevention/LEO/etc who oversteps their authority someone else in the same profession insists that there is a "bias" of some sort.

    Let me repeat the same thing I have said in every thread of this type.
    As I have said before in other posts, I have no problem with a pro, even one who makes an honest mistake. Having said that, guys like the ones in the above stories are very bad news. I for one will not reveal the presence of my weapon, or worse hand it over. Let’s face it. Almost none of us will ever have to deal with a pro because we won’t be stealing anything. Anyone who tries to stop one of us will by definition not be very good at their job in the first place.
    Having said that, if someone is lousy at their job, and abuses their authority I must confess I do have a serious bias towards them. I don't think anyone here has any issue with a guard/lp/leo/camel farmer/etc who does their job well.

  11. #86
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoodSamaritan View Post
    Having said that, if someone is lousy at their job, and abuses their authority I must confess I do have a serious bias towards them. I don't think anyone here has any issue with a guard/lp/leo/camel farmer/etc who does their job well.
    I beg to differ. I have a problem with Socialists who are good at their job. :)
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

  12. #87
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SammyIamToday View Post
    I beg to differ. I have a problem with Socialists who are good at their job. :)
    Ok... you got me ! :) I guess I should have said "any honorable/honest profession".

    Sheesh! PICKY Picky picky!

    On the other hand I would say a fairly high percentage of the socialists currently holding office in this country are doing an absolutely horrible job. (Please note I did not mention any political party.)

  13. #88
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    This is very genral and will change state to state but seems like it had some good info.....and just by the way i would not give up my weapon either....http://www.crimedoctor.com/shoplifting2.htm

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    Know the immediate physical reality, "I will remain as polite as possible without abdicating my rights. I cannot control the outcome, only my actions. The instant that someone gets grabby with me against my will, we go from zero to thermonuclear in a heartbeat. I'm in survival mode, the LP "veteran" is in survival mode and all we have is who is more/better trained. Game on. Someone will be incapacitated, that's about the only thing I can guarantee."

    The law will sort things out after the fact.
    I don't know about Pa. but here in Fl. if I go "thermonuclear" I'd better be darned sure I was threatened with real, serious bodily harm not just some LP that gets a little overzealous or I'm going to end up in jail for a very long time. Like you, I'll remain polite, attempt to explain my situation and do my best to insist on proper authority, but if push comes to shove (no pun intended) I'm going to err on the "play it cool and go with the flow" side. I suppose if have some reason to believe the officer confronting me is a malicious imposter my position might change, but I'm focused on self-defense, not puffing my chest out defending my right to carry. That'll sort out later, probably with me a bunch richer ...
    Springfield XD9SC
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  15. #90
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    Something to think about for you Hoosiers:

    IC 35-33-1-4

    " Any person
    35-33-1-4 Sec. 4. (a) Any person may arrest any other person if:
    (1) the other person committed a felony in his presence;
    (2) a felony has been committed and he has probable cause to believe that the other person has committed that felony; or
    (3) a misdemeanor involving a breach of peace is being committed in his presence and the arrest is necessary to prevent the continuance of the breach of peace.
    (b) A person making an arrest under this section shall, as soon as practical, notify a law enforcement officer and deliver custody of the person arrested to a law enforcement officer.
    (c) The law enforcement officer may process the arrested person as if the officer had arrested him. The officer who receives or processes a person arrested by another under this section is not liable for false arrest or false imprisonment."

    I've always wondered what would happen if I were detained under this law for a crime I didn't commit:

    IC 35-42-3-3

    "Criminal confinement
    35-42-3-3 Sec. 3. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
    (1) confines another person without the other person's consent; or
    (2) removes another person, by fraud, enticement, force, or threat of force, from one (1) place to another;
    commits criminal confinement. Except as provided in subsection (b), the offense of criminal confinement is a Class D felony.
    (b) The offense of criminal confinement defined in subsection (a) is:
    (1) a Class C felony if:
    (A) the person confined or removed is less than fourteen (14) years of age and is not the confining or removing person's child;
    (B) it is committed by using a vehicle; or
    (C) it results in bodily injury to a person other than the confining or removing person; and
    (2) a Class B felony if it:
    (A) is committed while armed with a deadly weapon;
    (B) results in serious bodily injury to a person other than the confining or removing person; or
    (C) is committed on an aircraft."

    IC 35-33-1-4 would seem to support the detaining of a shoplifter (breech of peace at the least). However, if I knew I was innocent and they had no substantive proof, could I not turn the tables and arrest them for criminal confinement?

    Makes one think....

    Josh <><

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