You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith IC 35-33-1-4 would seem to support the detaining of a shoplifter (breech of peace at the least). However, if ...

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Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #91
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua M. Smith View Post
    IC 35-33-1-4 would seem to support the detaining of a shoplifter (breech of peace at the least). However, if I knew I was innocent and they had no substantive proof, could I not turn the tables and arrest them for criminal confinement?

    Makes one think....

    Josh <><
    I am not a lawyer, and your state laws and case law may be (read is) different from mine. Criminal Confinement would be in the simplest case, kidnapping. If you were detained under reasonable circumstances for store security, etc to determine whether you had shoplifted, that would not be Criminal Confinement or in many states, even false arrest. If you are arrested and charged, and you did not in fact commit the crime, contrary to what many think, it is not necessarily false arrest if it was made with good probable cause. If it is made in good faith, and without malicious intent, it is most likely going to be dismissed or acquitted. End of story. If that were not the case, every time I made an arrest that resulted in an acquittal or dismissal, the dept and I would be sued for false arrest.
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  3. #92
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    Know the immediate physical reality, "I will remain as polite as possible without abdicating my rights. I cannot control the outcome, only my actions. The instant that someone gets grabby with me against my will, we go from zero to thermonuclear in a heartbeat. I'm in survival mode, the LP "veteran" is in survival mode and all we have is who is more/better trained. Game on. Someone will be incapacitated, that's about the only thing I can guarantee."

    The law will sort things out after the fact.
    If that security officer is licensed and in uniform that will buy you a third degree felony or higher at least in fl.

    Whenever any person is charged with knowingly committing an assault or battery upon a law enforcement officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical care provider, a traffic accident investigation officer as described in s. 316.640, a nonsworn law enforcement agency employee who is certified as an agency inspector, blood alcohol analyst, or a breath test operator while such employee is in uniform and engaged in processing, testing, evaluating, analyzing, or transporting a person who is detained or under arrest for DUI, a traffic infraction enforcement officer as described in s. 316.640, a parking enforcement specialist as defined in s. 316.640, a person licensed as a security officer as defined in s. 493.6101 and wearing a uniform that bears at least one patch or emblem that is visible at all times that clearly identifies the employing agency and that clearly identifies the person as a licensed security officer, or a security officer employed by the board of trustees of a community college, while the officer, firefighter, emergency medical care provider, intake officer, traffic accident investigation officer, traffic infraction enforcement officer, inspector, analyst, operator, parking enforcement specialist, public transit employee or agent, or security officer is engaged in the lawful performance of his or her duties, the offense for which the person is charged shall be reclassified as follows:

    (a) In the case of assault, from a misdemeanor of the second degree to a misdemeanor of the first degree.

    (b) In the case of battery, from a misdemeanor of the first degree to a felony of the third degree.

    (c) In the case of aggravated assault, from a felony of the third degree to a felony of the second degree. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person convicted of aggravated assault upon a law enforcement officer shall be sentenced to a minimum term of imprisonment of 3 years.

    (d) In the case of aggravated battery, from a felony of the second degree to a felony of the first degree. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any person convicted of aggravated battery of a law enforcement officer shall be sentenced to a minimum term of imprisonment of 5 years.

    ALSO fl law says an agent of the retail store may TAKE INTO CUSTODY and detain for probable cuse of theft. That may incluse handcuffing

    812.015 retail and farm theft; transit fare evasion; mandatory fine; alternative punishment; detention and arrest; exemption from liability for false arrest; resisting arrest; penalties.--
    A law enforcement officer, a merchant, a farmer, or a transit agency's employee or agent, who has probable cause to believe that a retail theft, farm theft, a transit fare evasion, or trespass, or unlawful use or attempted use of any antishoplifting or inventory control device countermeasure, has been committed by a person and, in the case of retail or farm theft, that the property can be recovered by taking the offender into custody may, for the purpose of attempting to effect such recovery or for prosecution, take the offender into custody and detain the offender in a reasonable manner for a reasonable length of time. In the case of a farmer, taking into custody shall be effectuated only on property owned or leased by the farmer. In the event the merchant, merchant's employee, farmer, or a transit agency's employee or agent takes the person into custody, a law enforcement officer shall be called to the scene immediately AFTER the person has been taken into custody.
    Last edited by bigdog21; May 22nd, 2007 at 10:23 AM.

  4. #93
    New Member Array slowpoke's Avatar
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    Why not?

    Maybe retail outlets should be able to 'detain' suspected theives.

    Thing is though, they'd better be right. If not, that'd open up a large can of worms.

  5. #94
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kairo View Post
    I was thinking about this earlier, and how ugly of a situation it could become. Suppose you're at the grocery store, JC pennys, wherever, and they suspect you of shoplifting. Legally the store can detain you until the police arive (at least around here they can). So as you're about to leave the store, the manager or whomever steps up to you and says, "I'm sorry, but we're going to have to detain you until the police arrive." Slightly peeved, you agree to stay and wait, because you're obviously not a shoplifter.
    All of a sudden someone reaches out to check your person and discoveres your handgun(s). They demand that you turn them over to them until the police arrive.

    What the heck are you supposed to do? I'd never give up my weapon to a clerk or store manager, but I can easily see them trying to take it from me.
    NOBODY can detain me unless they are law enforcement. I would call 911 say I am being illegally detained, walk out and make sure the 911 operator knew my location. Anyone touching me would be guilty of assault. I am sorry but no barney fife guard has the proper training to take me into custody.

  6. #95
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    NOBODY can detain me unless they are law enforcement. I would call 911 say I am being illegally detained, walk out and make sure the 911 operator knew my location. Anyone touching me would be guilty of assault. I am sorry but no Barney fife guard has the proper training to take me into custody.
    Why is it people always call security Barney fife? Barney fife was a deputy sheriff not a security person. Also what makes you so sure the security officer doesn't have the proper training? Oh you mean you'll resist detention. thats why the security officer can use Reasonable force to detain. you fight they, fight back. except your force will be illegal

  7. #96
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdog21 View Post
    Why is it people always call security Barney fife? Barney fife was a deputy sheriff not a security person. Also what makes you so sure the security officer doesn't have the proper training? Oh you mean you'll resist detention. thats why the security officer can use Reasonable force to detain. you fight they, fight back. except your force will be illegal
    Barney fife was an incompetent. Much like most security guards.

    I do not know what kind of controling nazi state you live in but where I reside if they do not have reasonable cause they cannot detain me so if I refuse to be detained (because I DO NOT steal and I am 100&#37; positive they have no reasonable cause) and they use force and I resist in public in front of everyone while I am on the phone with 911 trying to exit the store, yes I may go to jail but I can tell you now that my lawyer will own that company and own the barney fife who assaulted me and I guarantee you they will not be able to prove reasonable cause because I DO NOT steal. So I say bring it on. I will take my lumps and I will fight for my rights and not be a sheep. The ONLY person that will detain me or whose orders I will follow will be a certified peace officer in the commission of his or her duties.

  8. #97
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post

    I do not know what kind of controling nazi state you live in but where I reside if they do not have reasonable cause they cannot detain me so if I refuse to be detained (because I DO NOT steal and I am 100% positive they have no reasonable cause) and they use force and I resist in public in front of everyone while I am on the phone with 911 trying to exit the store, yes I may go to jail but I can tell you now that my lawyer will own that company and own the barney fife who assaulted me and I guarantee you they will not be able to prove reasonable cause because I DO NOT steal. So I say bring it on. I will take my lumps and I will fight for my rights and not be a sheep. The ONLY person that will detain me or whose orders I will follow will be a certified peace officer in the commission of his or her duties.

    Ditto. Further, you are justifiably using self defense against an unlawful attack. They, not you have to defend themselves. Assuming you haven't stolen anything. I'd also make darn sure they couldn't get me out of the public eye where they could plant something to get out of the lawsuit from being wrong.
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  9. #98
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    bd21 - FL law does not pertain to me in PA.

    What I said still holds. Somebody (an agent of a for-profit enterprise) gets grabby with me against my will, well, they will encounter a response from me.

    I don't believe I stated that I would make their life difficult or start agression with them. If they think I am stealing, they will have to let me choose the place that I will wait for police to come and sort things out. And they will have to do it without laying on of their hands to me. I would stop outside the store or at the entrance where there is traffic (witnesses) and also video cameras. I will never, and I mean never, allow myself to be brought to some back room by security.

    Besides, if something did happen and testosterone filled mall ninja gets into an altercation with me and they do NOT find any contraband on me (which they wont, because I do not steal). Well, oh well, I and any legal team I employ will have a field day with said guard and for-profit enterprise.

    I'm with azchevy - "The ONLY person that will detain me or whose orders I will follow will be a certified peace officer in the commission of his or her duties."

    If you are a security guard, no need to take this personally.

  10. #99
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    bd21 - FL law does not pertain to me in PA.

    What I said still holds. Somebody (an agent of a for-profit enterprise) gets grabby with me against my will, well, they will encounter a response from me.

    I don't believe I stated that I would make their life difficult or start agression with them. If they think I am stealing, they will have to let me choose the place that I will wait for police to come and sort things out. And they will have to do it without laying on of their hands to me. I would stop outside the store or at the entrance where there is traffic (witnesses) and also video cameras. I will never, and I mean never, allow myself to be brought to some back room by security.

    Besides, if something did happen and testosterone filled mall ninja gets into an altercation with me and they do NOT find any contraband on me (which they wont, because I do not steal). Well, oh well, I and any legal team I employ will have a field day with said guard and for-profit enterprise.

    I'm with azchevy - "The ONLY person that will detain me or whose orders I will follow will be a certified peace officer in the commission of his or her duties."

    If you are a security guard, no need to take this personally.
    I am a security officer but working in this industry for a while you learn to never take an incident personally. Its just a job.

  11. #100
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    Tell'm to go to that special extra-warm place. Keep your gun, and explain just how big of a SOB your lawyer is, and how much he wants someone to buy him a new boat.
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  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Barney fife was an incompetent. Much like most security guards.

    I do not know what kind of controling nazi state you live in but where I reside if they do not have reasonable cause they cannot detain me so if I refuse to be detained (because I DO NOT steal and I am 100% positive they have no reasonable cause) and they use force and I resist in public in front of everyone while I am on the phone with 911 trying to exit the store, yes I may go to jail but I can tell you now that my lawyer will own that company and own the barney fife who assaulted me and I guarantee you they will not be able to prove reasonable cause because I DO NOT steal. So I say bring it on. I will take my lumps and I will fight for my rights and not be a sheep. The ONLY person that will detain me or whose orders I will follow will be a certified peace officer in the commission of his or her duties.
    So let me get this straight. No low life security guard is going to accuse you of stealing when YOU obviously know you haven't. Let WW 3 erupt in the process. Now replace "security guard" with "LEO."
    What changes? Are you going to go to war with an LEO who thinks he has reasonable cause? People are people, you know. Everybody makes mistakes. LEOs, security guards, even you.

    I maintain that if you are detained for suspected shoplifting, you should make the event as painless as possible for everybody. Do you really want to get into a fight over something so stupid? Do you want the guard to beat you up, or shoot you if you get the upper hand on him? Do you want to go to court to fight an assault charge? All these things could happen if you resist.

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  13. #102
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    So let me get this straight. No low life security guard is going to accuse you of stealing when YOU obviously know you haven't. Let WW 3 erupt in the process. Now replace "security guard" with "LEO."
    What changes? Are you going to go to war with an LEO who thinks he has reasonable cause? People are people, you know. Everybody makes mistakes. LEOs, security guards, even you.

    I maintain that if you are detained for suspected shoplifting, you should make the event as painless as possible for everybody. Do you really want to get into a fight over something so stupid? Do you want the guard to beat you up, or shoot you if you get the upper hand on him? Do you want to go to court to fight an assault charge? All these things could happen if you resist.

    My suggestion, do your shopping online.

    Yes, when the police come to my house to perform an illegal search and seizure I should submit and make it painless. After all they are the police and nobody knows better than they do.

    Submit to big brother and do as they say. Make it as painless possible.

    No. I will fight for my rights and my freedom no matter what the cost, no matter what the consequences. I will not go quietly. My rights will not be infringed. Yes it is that important to me, very important to me, especially in a world where our rights are eroding away one patriot act at a time.

  14. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Everybody makes mistakes. LEOs, security guards, even you.
    Detainment is fine. Being touched, manhandled, assaulted ... those absolutely are not. Folks make mistakes, yes. And that can have serious consequences.
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  15. #104
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    O.K. guys lets keep it polite and on topic. The best suggestion I can give you is remain calm and ask for PD. Not all security is trained to the same level, but most businesses do not want
    1. to piss off a customer who isn't guilty
    2. get sued for a false apprehension
    I suggest strongly you look up your states laws regarding stores rights to detain BEFORE you make statements like "no one but PD will stop me" and such. Most states , if you are convicted of a misdemeanor, you will either get your permit suspended or revoked.
    I have said all I feel I need to.
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  16. #105
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    detaining is one thing searching is another,the gun stays where it is.

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