You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; not to start a fight but um.. you guys who say no one will touch me . you do know a lot of times when ...

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Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #106
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    not to start a fight but um.. you guys who say no one will touch me . you do know a lot of times when your detained by security you will be handcuffed and yes they have that legal right . you know that little take into custody and detain in a reasonable manner, handcuffing is considered a reasonable manner.

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  3. #107
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdog21 View Post
    not to start a fight but um.. you guys who say no one will touch me . you do know a lot of times when your detained by security you will be handcuffed and yes they have that legal right . you know that little take into custody and detain in a reasonable manner, handcuffing is considered a reasonable manner.
    So I can handcuff you if I suspect you of committing a crime? I should just start going around handcuffing people I see break the law. Speeders, litterers, etc.

  4. #108
    Member Array bigdog21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    So I can handcuff you if I suspect you of committing a crime? I should just start going around handcuffing people I see break the law. Speeders, litterers, etc.
    Suspect no if you have probable cause yes. You may if you have the lawful authority to take that person into custody.LAst i checked speeding isnt an arrestable offense tell me where does it say in law a police officer may handcuff you. it doesn't, It says they have the authority to arrest and use force to ensure you comply with that arrest. thats why they can handcuff you. the same with a citizens arrest or merchants detention. the handcuffing is to stop what you all are describing, a person with lawful authority trying to detain you for a lawful reason and you telling them to F off. you wont be able to attack the person or escape as easily with handcuffs on

  5. #109
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdog21 View Post
    Suspect no if you have probable cause yes. You may if you have the lawful authority to take that person into custody.LAst i checked speeding isnt an arrestable offense tell me where does it say in law a police officer may handcuff you. it doesn't, It says they have the authority to arrest and use force to ensure you comply with that arrest. thats why they can handcuff you. the same with a citizens arrest or merchants detention. the handcuffing is to stop what you all are describing, a person with lawful authority trying to detain you for a lawful reason and you telling them to F off. you wont be able to attack the person or escape as easily with handcuffs on

    Well in the above hypothetical situation you are being accused yet did not commit said act. Obviouisly if I did do it and got busted I would submit because I am an idiot who deserves to go to jail. However, if I have not broken the law I will not be detained and I will not let some security guard handcuff me. I bet I can run faster scared than they can mad.

  6. #110
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    I worked private security for several years before "retiring" from that and going to work in a pawn shop. Some of the details that I worked was LP. In the time that I was doing LP, I effected several arrests/detentions, only one of which wound up being a case of mistaken identity.

    After doing the job for a while, a pro LPO can tell who is going to be a problem and who is not to some degree.

    If they feel that you are going to be a problem, the call to PD will have been made by another associate. The arresting/detaining officer will take the situation in hand as he feels is appropriate. If I thought that the suspect was going to be a problem, I would have a second officer nearby acting normal (a shopper returning to his/her car). I would approach and engage in general conversation like asking for directions (having a crumpled map and keys in hand is a handy thing when doing this one). I would ask for a simple place to find like an airport. I would then get the directions screwed up and have the directions repeated (depending upon ETA of LEO's).

    Most times, offenders would accompany me to an office where processing would begin.


    Let's get real about this though. Some here are saying that they would put up a fight because they know they didn't do anything...blah blah blah. Some have even gone so far as to insult the people and profession. So let me get this straight. You would put up a fight with a guy that was doing his/her job simply because you don't want to be interrupted? You are immature.


    As far as surrendering my sidearm, not a chance. As others have mentioned, I do not know the background of the individual that approached me. I do not know their familiarity with whatever gun I am carrying. I would await the arrival of PD in the front of the store. I will inform the security and the manager (which I would have requested immediately) that I will wait for LEO's due to outstanding circumstances and that I would not submit to a search of anything in my posession, including myself until LEO's arrive.
    "A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair

  7. #111
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    +1 on Rocky's comments.

    Here in the Peepul's Republik of Kalifornia, the LPO must see you conceal the item and must see that you did not pay for the item - either after passing through check-out or by bypassing check-out and heading for the door. Typically they let a customer exit the store before stopping them so as to make their case that they failed to pay for the item.

    I was stopped once, by an LPO of a west-coast clothing store known for aggressive anti-shoplifting tactics. He identified himself and asked me to return to the store. I refused and said that I'd certainly allow him to verify the contents of my bag against the receipt if he told me what I supposedly took. He thought I'd taken a large lady's wallet, which was absurd since I hadn't been near the women's department. He checked the receipt (it all matched).

    When he said he wanted to detain and search me, I drew the line. It was a hot day (90+) and I was dressed in a tucked t-shirt, shorts and sneakers. Being somewhat on the pudgy side, there was no room to conceal it in my clothing. He was insistent that we go back inside "for privacy during the search." I suggested he call 911 and get a uniform present while I waited. By this time two more LPOs had come outside to join him. For their benefit I reiterated that I would wait for the PD in the parking lot but not return inside.

    When two cops arrived, they talked to the LPOs and then to me. I put out my cigarette and explained to the PD I thought they'd made an honest error, however I would not go into the store out of public view. The PD asked if I would let them pat me down - nice of 'em - just to be sure. I was onery, hot & sweaty. I suggested an LPO fetch a copy of the alleged wallet so officers could see what they should look for. Two minutes later, the cops are asking these LPOs if they were born stupid or worked hard to get that way (large lady's wallet that is 8"L x 4"H x 3" thick would have looked like a football in my shorts).

    The important part is to remain calm and low-key. Take the stance that it's probably an honest error (if possible) but be firm that you won't leave the public area, you won't be touched and, most importantly, please call the police while I wait here.

    In my case, if they start trying to manhandle me back into the store, I'll repeat that I'll wait in the parking lot for the PD and try to avoid their physical contact. Knowing that I'm innocent (since I don't steal) means I can resist an unlawful citizen's arrest (in CA at least). The rest will be left as an exercise for the reader's imagination.
    BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
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  8. #112
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    In that situation i whip out my cell , dial 911 and inform the dispatcher that someone is attempting to illegaly detain me , inform them that i am leagaly armed , give them the store name/location and dont hang up till officers arrive . It wont take long for officers to arrive , and the faces of security / managers should just be priceless .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
    We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .

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  9. #113
    Ex Member Array dwolsten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillCA View Post
    Here in the Peepul's Republik of Kalifornia, the LPO must see you conceal the item and must see that you did not pay for the item - either after passing through check-out or by bypassing check-out and heading for the door. Typically they let a customer exit the store before stopping them so as to make their case that they failed to pay for the item.
    For all its craziness, there's actually some good things about the laws in Kalifornia.

    One of them is the employee-friendly prohibition against non-compete clauses. No one should have a right to keep you from obtaining work, but in many states it's allowed.

  10. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Barney fife was an incompetent. Much like most security guards.
    Barney Fife was character in a television show, actually. Some security officers are incompetent, some are not. This thread is getting a little heated so I would encourage all that need it to step back and take a breath. These are personal opinions, so if you don't agree with them just move on....
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  11. #115
    VIP Member Array artz's Avatar
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    ...good thread !
    I think I'd do what redneck repairs suggested...
    " Refuse to be a victim, make sure there is a round chambered ! "

    Just call me a pessimistic optimist !

    U.S. Navy vet 1981-1992

  12. #116
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    This is, I hope, my last word on the issue:

    When I was a security officer, I met a few hardheads that didn't think I could arrest them. I proved them all wrong. Then they all threatened to sue. Haven't heard from their attorneys yet. Then they were convicted in a court of law.

    Rock meets hard place, somebody is going to lose. Hope your luck holds out when the quarter falls.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  13. #117
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    This is, I hope, my last word on the issue:

    When I was a security officer, I met a few hardheads that didn't think I could arrest them. I proved them all wrong. Then they all threatened to sue. Haven't heard from their attorneys yet. Then they were convicted in a court of law.

    Rock meets hard place, somebody is going to lose. Hope your luck holds out when the quarter falls.


    Security guards. LOL
    Sorry if I got heated on you guys but if you notice all the security guards on the forum are talking like they are swat members and "take down" people all the time. No wonder why you get the stereotype.

  14. #118
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    paramedic - sometimes you're the rock and sometimes you're the hard place. In your experience you were always the rock. But that is not always so for all people.

    Looks like you showed professionalism. That is not always the case either.

  15. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Security guards. LOL
    Sorry if I got heated on you guys but if you notice all the security guards on the forum are talking like they are swat members and "take down" people all the time. No wonder why you get the stereotype.
    That's funny. Even though I guess the more "agressive" less "experienced" ones are probably the most vocal. We're probably not hearing from a good cross-section of the people in loss-prevention.

    I think former / currnet loss prevention workers do take this topic way too personally. Give them a break, it's only a little inconvenient, they'll take you down 25 ways from Sunday, they have the legal right to affect arrest. Yada yada yada. If they do their job correctly and do not try to infringe on my rights, it is a non-issue. Otherwise, there will be problems.

  16. #120
    Ron
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    Distinguished Member Array Ron's Avatar
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    I read through all of the posts and, frankly, there seems to have been a lot of offering of "legal opinions" by what appear to be non-lawyers, about what the security personel can and can't do, usually without any reference to a particular state statute(with some exceptions), as well as a bit of macho posturing.

    Folks, if we are going to lawfully carry a weapon and stay out of trouble, it is imperative that we familiarize ourselves with all aspects of the laws of our state relating to concealed carry, including our rights if we are accused of shoplifting while we are carrying. Assuming we know what the law is and our rights, and being wrong, can have some serious consequences.

    Ron
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