You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am allowed to detain you if I feel you are stealing from me, but our lawyers have stated to us that I have to ...

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Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #121
    New Member Array BoomerADF's Avatar
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    I am allowed to detain you if I feel you are stealing from me, but our lawyers have stated to us that I have to see you conceal the item before I approach you and attempt to detain/stop you. At this point I can.

    I cant directly take your weapon away from you and as long as it stays concealed on you I have no need or real desire to take it from you. If you decided you want me to view your weapon I am more than likely going to react by either making an attempt to stop you, take your weapon etc...

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  3. #122
    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerADF View Post
    If you decided you want me to view your weapon I am more than likely going to react by either making an attempt to stop you, take your weapon etc...
    Or die trying. Nobody but the police disarms me.

  4. #123
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    Not many people mentioned that they would tell the security people that they had a permit and then show them the permit.

    A private person, security guard or not, may make an arrest for a felony, in MI anyway. CCW without a permit in MI is a felony. If they know you have a gun, and you refuse to show them your permit and make a stand with the "I'm waiting for the police" line, it would seem like a lawful arrest by the citizen/security guard to me. You might win a nuisance lawsuit, but I suggest you tell them you have a permit before you start resisting. What makes you think that just because you have a gun, you're not the one who's going to be shot? If they stopped you because they saw a gun on you, and you told them you had a permit and showed it to them, then I would say they had no grounds to arrest you. The most they could do would be to ban you from the store.

    THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE (EXCERPT)
    Act 175 of 1927


    764.16 Arrest by private person; situations.

    Sec. 16.

    A private person may make an arrest—in the following situations:

    (a) For a felony committed in the private person's presence.

    (b) If the person to be arrested has committed a felony although not in the private person's presence.

    (c) If the private person is summoned by a peace officer to assist the officer in making an arrest.

    (d) If the private person is a merchant, an agent of a merchant, an employee of a merchant, or an independent contractor providing security for a merchant of a store and has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be arrested has violated section 356c or 356d of the Michigan penal code, Act No. 328 of the Public Acts of 1931, being sections 750.356c and 750.356d of the Michigan Compiled Laws, in that store, regardless of whether the violation was committed in the presence of the private person.


    History: 1927, Act 175, Eff. Sept. 5, 1927 ;-- CL 1929, 17150 ;-- CL 1948, 764.16 ;-- Am. 1988, Act 19, Eff. June 1, 1988
    Last edited by and the; May 24th, 2007 at 08:05 PM.

  5. #124
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerADF View Post
    I am allowed to detain you if I feel you are stealing from me, but our lawyers have stated to us that I have to see you conceal the item before I approach you and attempt to detain/stop you. At this point I can.

    I cant directly take your weapon away from you and as long as it stays concealed on you I have no need or real desire to take it from you. If you decided you want me to view your weapon I am more than likely going to react by either making an attempt to stop you, take your weapon etc...

    That is crazy. Grabbing a suspected shoplifters weapon for security wages. Not worth the risk. Let the police handle it and be a good witness. An alive witness.

  6. #125
    New Member Array BoomerADF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith&Wessonfan View Post
    Or die trying. Nobody but the police disarms me.
    While I do agree with this, what would you do if all of sudden presented with a loaded firearm being pointed at you and mostly with out reason?

  7. #126
    New Member Array BoomerADF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    That is crazy. Grabbing a suspected shoplifters weapon for security wages. Not worth the risk. Let the police handle it and be a good witness. An alive witness.
    I didn't phrase it as I should I more mean if you confront me with it i.e. pull your firearm and attempt to point it at me etc. If I were to see it inside your shirt, coat, etc I would be much more aware but I would not make attempts at it as long as that is where it remained.

  8. #127
    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoomerADF View Post
    what would you do if all of sudden presented with a loaded firearm being pointed at you and mostly with out reason?
    I would be extremely careful that my next move does not become my last one.

  9. #128
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    I'll reiterate, what I have said on this subject numerous times now. I am not concerned about well trained loss prevention professionals. I would expect a good guy making an honest mistake to be a rare occurrence, but handled with professionalism. Anyone who accosts me has already proven they aren’t very good at their job, because I do not steal. By definition I will never have to deal with anyone in L.P. who is on top of their game.

    In my line of work, I am in and out of a lot of stores in the run of a month. I have seen several LP stops. The one that always sticks out in my memory is seeing some lady start walking out the doors by the registers when some guy just walks up and grabs her arm roughly. She screams bloody murder, manages to get her arm loose and bolts out the front door with Mr mall ninja grabbing at her shirt all the way. I can’t say conclusively that he didn’t identify himself, but I was less than 30ft away at the time, and I didn’t hear a peep out of him. To make a long story short, He chased her across the parking lot grabbing at her the whole way. The manager wasn’t far behind. I didn’t see what ended the chase, but it didn’t take long before they came back in, where the manager went through her belongings. It turned out that she didn’t have whatever it was they were looking for. After they all had a nice little chat, (during which I got really interested in some signs on the bulletin board) the manager walked off, and she started to leave, but it wasn’t over just yet. To my disbelief, I overheard the LP guy get hostile with her. On other occasions I have seen store employees get into wrestling matches with people, and I have seen numerous chases. I know there are good LP guys, and I would expect the ones on this board belong to their ranks. However there are some real mall ninjas out there, and I think we all need to be aware of their existence.



    These are the very same mall ninjas who will try to get you into some back room where they can make up whatever story they want about what they found on you to save their own skin. I will be calm, and I will not be planting anyone 6ft under, but I WILL be waiting for the police, in public. I WILL not surrender my weapon; much less let them know of its existence so that they can make up a good story for the cops. I WILL press charges if at all possible. End of story.

  10. #129
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    GoodSamaritan - good post. It is lost on some of our lp bretheren that not following their requests automatically turns us into unstable commandos.

    Any professional LP who stops me and hears me say I want the LEO to deal with this AND then gets grabby with me deserves the outcome (whatever it may be). For all the professional LP who will take this que and wait for LEO, that is the way it should happen.

    Just remember, what people think should happen due to legislation or their training and what actually happens can be worlds apart.

  11. #130
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    Most of you have had valid points about this situation, I may not have agreed with all of them, but valid none the less.

    There are some of you who have gone way too far with this. It may be your ignorance of the law, immaturity, macho posturing, or just plain stupidity.

    Regardless of what you have or may decide to do in this situation I think it may help all of us to take a look at how we came to our decision.

    Here are 3 steps that I take to try to avoid unnecessary problems for myself. They should be followed in order:

    1-Know your local, state, and federal laws. After you know them, keep up with them. News flash: the law does change from time to time. Ignorance of the law is NOT a valid defense.

    2-The best way to prevail in any type of conflict is to do everything in your power to ensure a conflict never takes place. I am not talking about avoiding or running away from every sign of trouble (although in some situations avoidance is your best option).

    3-If you find yourself in a conflict try your best to remain calm and also try not to escalate the situation.

    At this point you can evaluate the situation and make an educated decision on how to proceed. You know the law so it SHOULD be on your side, you know you did not start or provoke the conflict in any way, and you have remained relatively calm so you should be able to think clearly.

    You are now prepared to decide what you are going to do. Whatever that decision is YOU are going to have to live with the consequences of your actions. The real world in very unpredictable and things can change in an instant, but you can prevent a lot of unnecessary problems for yourself if you just follow the steps.

    Stay safe.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  12. #131
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    1-Know your local, state, and federal laws. After you know them, keep up with them. News flash: the law does change from time to time. Ignorance of the law is NOT a valid defense.

    2-The best way to prevail in any type of conflict is to do everything in your power to ensure a conflict never takes place. I am not talking about avoiding or running away from every sign of trouble (although in some situations avoidance is your best option).

    3-If you find yourself in a conflict try your best to remain calm and also try not to escalate the situation.
    I agree completely. Know the law, be polite and always try to keep things from escalating. Any LP professional is going to respond in kind. Unfortunately, every profession has a number of individuals who give the rest a bad name. That still leaves people like the one I saw getting grabby without identifying himself to the lady in my earlier post. Despite all the going back and forth we have done, these people can still be a danger to us and our freedoms. Anyone who would get hostile with someone who turned out not to be stealing (despite whatever suspicions they may have had to the contrary) is just as likely as not to fabricate evidence to prevent themselves from looking foolish. I WILL wait for the police calmly and politely, but I WILL NOT go off camera, or out of sight of the public, and I will NOT notify anyone but the police that I am armed. It is all too easy for someone to say, “He threatened me! He said he had a gun!” (Make up any version of that story you like.) Depending on where you live, your CCW or even your 2A freedoms might very well be lost to the lies of someone who just wants to keep themselves from reaping the consequences of their own actions. To deny that any such thing is possible is similar to saying “I don’t need a gun because I have never needed one before.” Once again, no offense to our resident LP professionals, the job you do is a necessary and thankless one.

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith&Wessonfan View Post
    Or die trying. Nobody but the police disarms me.
    That sounds real nice and gutsy typed into an Internet forum post but, when you type "or die trying" insinuating that you would shoot to kill an individual that you knew to be a store security guard who was attempting to disarm you.

    That would be an impending Murder charge you would be facing. Good luck in court.
    A Top Notch laywer might get you down to Manslaughter 1.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  14. #133
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    I think some folks are under the impression that they're in charge once they screw up and fail to conceal their gun properly. If you make a mistake like that, why not just tell the guard: "I've got a permit and here it is. I'll let you look at it, but after that I'm leaving unless you have cause to arrest me"?

    As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is unable to conceal their gun and then gets obstinate with someone who is paid to ensure the security of patrons at a public place, and REFUSES to immediately divulge the fact that they have a permit and does not immediately produce the permit, DESERVES to have his gun taken away by Gary Guard. You are NOT in charge of the situation when you fail to conceal your gun and then give someone a hard time about it when they notice. You lost control when you let your gun become obvious. At that point, the security guy isn't YOUR problem, you're HIS.

    You do not make store policy. Act like a jerk in a store and sue them and win a coupled grand in a nuisance suit that you could have easily avoided by just being reasonable and guess what is going to be posted at each branch of that store across the country before you can say "Fourth Amendment?" "No Firearms Allowed On The Premesis". Then the only ones who will have guns in there legally are employees (maybe), cops and retired cops.
    Last edited by and the; May 25th, 2007 at 08:24 PM.

  15. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    That sounds real nice and gutsy typed into an Internet forum post but, when you type "or die trying" insinuating that you would shoot an individual that you knew to be a store security guard attempting to disarm you.

    That would be an impending Murder charge you would be facing. Good luck in court.

    I have to agree with QKShooter here...

    I am not a security guard or loss prevention person and never have been. I did know the head of loss prevention for a whole chain of stores in KC once, but that certainly does not make me an expert.

    I have seen a lot of people in this forum get pretty indignant at the thought of being stopped or accosted in a store regarding possible shoplifting. They mutter remarks like "I don't steal so they have no reason to stop me."

    These indignant people who say "I'm not a thief so they have no reason to stop me, and if they do, I'll do this, or that, or whatever"... I feel are rather full of themselves. How the hell does the security staff know YOU are not a thief? Thief's certainly don't have a scarlet letter tattoo'd on their foreheads.

    Well, I think these people are just trying to do their job. Shoplifting is probably close to a billion dollar a year industry if you factor in the "Tony Soprano" factor. Those losses come back directly to us with increased retail prices.

    I totally understand the lack of training and low wages with a large percentage of people used to fill those positions in stores. Naturally you will have overzealous people out on the store floor at any given moment. I understand a lot of them may not use the greatest of judgement or have proper training in surveillance techniques. However, I do not believe they just randomly grab people out of the blue and lay hands on them and accost them. I believe they are just trying to do a job to the best of their ability. If they confront a person for shoplifting it's because they believe they saw something that caused them to focus on that person. The whole nature of shoplifting is to be sneaky about it, so they may only have gotten a glance at something someone did to arouse that suspicion.

    I have never even once been targeted by such people in my 46 years on planet earth.

    I feel if I were, whether they were an 18 year old overzealous, undertrained kid or a professional loss preventative person I would handle the situation the same way.

    1) I would not let them put their hands on me and frisk or search me.
    2) I would not leave a public area to go to a private office or back room.
    3) I would let them search the store bag and review my reciept but nothing else.
    4) I would demand that they call the local police dept and have a patrol officer to respond or I would do it for them on my cell phone.
    5) I would not ever reveal to store personnel that I was carrying or was a ccw holder. I would only reveal that to the police dept. once they arrived on scene.

    I would then go about my business without carrying a friggon chip on my shoulder. I for one think retail prices are sky high, and any steps retailers do to curtail theft is ok by me.

    For those of you who will inevitably say... well I get stopped all the time and I'm tired of it... I say, maybe you should reevalute how you conduct yourself in a store because I still don't believe they just grab people out of nowhere without some sort of suspicion. There would be too much liability if that was done all the time.
    Last edited by Bark'n; May 25th, 2007 at 08:49 PM.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  16. #135
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by and the View Post
    I think some folks are under the impression that they're in charge once they screw up and fail to conceal their gun properly. If you make a mistake like that, why not just tell the guard: "I've got a permit and here it is. I'll let you look at it, but after that I'm leaving unless you have cause to arrest me"?

    As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is unable to conceal their gun and then gets obstinate with someone who is paid to ensure the security of patrons at a public place, and REFUSES to immediately divulge the fact that they have a permit and does not immediately produce the permit, DESERVES to have his gun taken away by Gary Guard. You are NOT in charge of the situation when you fail to conceal your gun and then give someone a hard time about it when they notice. You lost control when you let your gun become obvious. At that point, the security guy isn't YOUR problem, you're HIS.

    You do not make store policy. Act like a jerk in a store and sue them and win a coupled grand in a nuisance suit that you could have easily avoided by just being reasonable and guess what is going to be posted at each branch of that store across the country before you can say "Fourth Amendment?" "No Firearms Allowed On The Premesis". Then the only ones who will have guns in there legally are employees (maybe), cops and retired cops.


    Um, who said anything about failing to conceal your weapon causing the false stop? As for the last sentence, I don't know what state you are in, but around here that sign isn't worth the plastic it's printed on.
    Also I wonder what would be the outcome if you told them you had a weapon and then they swear on their mothers grave you used it as a threat? I suppose that would give them a favorable image of us?
    I will not cause a scene, and I will not disclose the fact that I am armed. Unless they have x-ray vision, they aren't going to figure it out for themselves until the police show up.

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