You are the "Shoplifter"

You are the "Shoplifter"

This is a discussion on You are the "Shoplifter" within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was thinking about this earlier, and how ugly of a situation it could become. Suppose you're at the grocery store, JC pennys, wherever, and ...

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Thread: You are the "Shoplifter"

  1. #1
    Member Array kairo's Avatar
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    We're going to detain you until the police arrive

    I was thinking about this earlier, and how ugly of a situation it could become. Suppose you're at the grocery store, JC pennys, wherever, and they suspect you of shoplifting. Legally the store can detain you until the police arive (at least around here they can). So as you're about to leave the store, the manager or whomever steps up to you and says, "I'm sorry, but we're going to have to detain you until the police arrive." Slightly peeved, you agree to stay and wait, because you're obviously not a shoplifter.
    All of a sudden someone reaches out to check your person and discoveres your handgun(s). They demand that you turn them over to them until the police arrive.

    What the heck are you supposed to do? I'd never give up my weapon to a clerk or store manager, but I can easily see them trying to take it from me.
    Nick
    He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    I'll wait for the LEO's......BUT (!!!).....nobody touches me.

    I WILL (!!!) consider that assault and take appropriate action. -----

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array SOLOLUCKY's Avatar
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    NOBODY WILL TAKE MY WEAPON FROM ME except LE. period. they have no lawful privilege on Ohio to do that nor would I allow it. Argue, resist or fight physically but i will not surrender my weapon nor will they be allowed to frisk or otherwise lay hands on me without LE present or actually doing it themselves.
    Things would deteriorate quickly should they put ME in that situation.

    I am NOT a mall ninja nor do I want or look for confrontation but...
    R1

    This is mine. That is yours.

    Lets keep it that way.

  4. #4
    Member Array kairo's Avatar
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    This is a situation that bothers me because I can easily see ignorance of the law coming into play. I know that I have a legal right to have my firearm, conceal it, and not give it up. Does the clerk or manager know this? I think it would be very easy for them to think..."We suspect this man of shoplifting, we know he has a gun now." they might put two and two together and think, "Gee, this guy was robbing us with a gun." Irrational, but the mind will do stranger things in the presence of guns. So now the clerk/manager has made it up in his mind that you are a dangerous threat. Him and his minions might make a rush at you and take your weapon. So...You can't just shoot 3 people in a crowded store, but you also can't just give up your weapon because of their ignorance of the law.


    Nick
    He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    They have no authority to touch you or take your weapon. I am surprised they have the authority to detain you but if that is the way it is, so be it. I would not allow a search from anyone except LE. Even then I would state I don't agree to it but would not resist. I would tell LE that I am carrying and have a permit. I would then state that I want to see an atorney. They may rethink how solid their case is, if as you say you are innocent. They can't be too confident of their facts.
    Last edited by havegunjoe; December 20th, 2006 at 03:50 PM.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by havegunjoe View Post
    They have no authority to touch you or take your weapon. I am surprised they have the authority to detain you but if that is the way it is, so be it. I would not allow a search from anyone except LE. Even then I would state I don't agree to it but would not resist. I would tell LE that I am carrying and have a permit. I would then state that I want to see an atorney. They may rethink how solid their case is if as you say you are innocent.
    +1 I would do everything possible to prevent escalation, short of disarming.

    Any thoughts from those in the "business"?

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    The first words out of your mouth should be: "I want a uniformed officer present. I am a Concealed Carry Permit holder, and I am presently armed. I am happy to wait in an area you feel comfortable with." No unauthorized/deputized agent may take custody, or legally request to take custody of, a firearm, barring an "immeninent peril" situation.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    If they have no right or authority to put hands on you, I'm not exactly sure I understand the basis of the claim that they have the right/authority to detain you. How can anyone detain someone who is unwilling to voluntarily be detained, unless they physically restrain him? Otherwise, he could simply walk out.

    If the situation is either let them have the gun or you're gonna have to shoot three anti-shoplifting doogooders, it seems that you're gonna have to let them have the gun, as distasteful as that seems.

    It seems unlikely to me, though, that employees who are not allowed to touch you (and who presumably would not have, by this point) should have any knowledge of the presence of your handgun! If they know about it, either they touched you (and you can swear out a complaint) or they saw it because you failed to adequately conceal it.

    If they came to know about the gun and demanded that you hand it over, I would say, "I'm not handing over my gun. I am licensed to carry it; you are mistaken about me committing any crime here; I will wait for a law enforcement officer to arrive and sort this out; but I am not removing my gun from its holster for anyone but the police. Now let's wait here calmly."

  9. #9
    Member Array speedlinehobbies's Avatar
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    This exact scenario actually happened to one of the regulars on the PDO site this time last year . It happened at a Bestbuy , security noticed a bulge under his shirt while bending over to look at merchandise , After he checked out the security guard (20yr and uneducated about the law) asked him to step aside and asked about was under his shirt . He stated that he had a CWP and that he was carrying , the guard immediately said it was not legal to carry in a store and had to take possesion of his weapon . The shopper told him that he would be happy to stay until police arrive and asked for the store manager to come to the front of the store , The security guard again said he was going to take possesion of his weapon , At this point the shopper remark that the security was about to have a very bad day if he attempts to take weapon . After the store manager gets involved it was agreed that he will keep his weapon , Concealed , until police arrive . After they arrive they inform security and store mamager that the shopper was within the law to carry a firearm . Management may ask him to leave , But there in no other recourse . At this point the security guard informs the police that the shopper suggested that there would be a confrontation if he tried to remove the shoppers weapon , The officer politely told him he was lucky the shopper wasnt more aggressive in defending himself and that if he had taken the weapon they would have had to charge the guard with grand theft .

    After all the fuss , The store manager asked him not to return to the store armed , He promptly returned $3500.00 in merchandise and told them to have a nice day . I believe he contacted a lawyer , but agreed to drop the suit if the security guard and manager take a NRA class at the local range , and Bestbuy asked local managers get informed of local laws .

    I havent heard much else about it the last few months , But it would be a scary situation to be in .
    Last edited by speedlinehobbies; December 20th, 2006 at 04:56 PM.
    Anyone make a IWB holster for my AR ??

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedlinehobbies View Post
    I believe he contacted a lawyer , but agreed to drop the suit if the security guard and manager take a NRA class at the local range , and Bestbuy asked local managers get informed of local laws .
    actually, if this is the one that happened last year then they "settled" for an undisclosed amount of money...the guy went out and bought a new gun with it but wasn't allowed to say how much he got...

    the other thing I would add to what has been said above is to dial 911 right away and tell them you are being detained.

  11. #11
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    I'll wait for a LEO, politely (if possible) tell them I'll retain custody of my weapon.

    If they try to take it....to me that's assault.......

    Not to mention, the last thing I want is some UNTRAINED mall ninja putting his grimy paws on my cocked & locked 1911.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  12. #12
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    This could either be a very simple situation if the store decides to keep their hands off of you and wait ffor LE, or it could get ugly. I'm not saying that someone would get shot, but any physical confrontation over the posession of a firearm is a recipe for disaster, both physical and legal.

    The one thing I took from the PDO story last year was NEVER, NEVER, NEVER agree to wait in an office or back room of the store. Wait with the manager, at the front of the store with the whole world as a witness. Also, there should be NOTHING to say until LE is on scene.

    I fall back on the fact that we are the good guys, we should have nothing to worry about and welcome LE involvement to diffuse the situation.

    Merry Christmas,

    Dave.

  13. #13
    Member Array raytracer's Avatar
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    I would further suggest that they contact their attorney, as I will be calling mine. I will also be contacting a sign company to change the name of the business to "Joe's ________".

    Joe

  14. #14
    Member Array Biloxi Bersa's Avatar
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    They have no right to detain you. Most companies discourage store personnel from evening making the attempt because of the risk to both the employees (physical harm) and to the company (lawsuits). If you left, they would probably jot down the license number and you could expect getting pulled over by the po-po before you got home. If you walked out into the mall, you can expect to be rousted by the mall security before LE arrives.

    As a licensed carrier, nobody but LE takes my gun. And I'd like to see a $6 an hour store clerk/security guard take a weapon from somebody.

    I can assure you, I'd sue the bejezus out of somebody over this.

  15. #15
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by kairo View Post
    I was thinking about this earlier, and how ugly of a situation it could become. Suppose you're at the grocery store, JC pennys, wherever, and they suspect you of shoplifting. Legally the store can detain you until the police arive (at least around here they can). So as you're about to leave the store, the manager or whomever steps up to you and says, "I'm sorry, but we're going to have to detain you until the police arrive." Slightly peeved, you agree to stay and wait, because you're obviously not a shoplifter.
    All of a sudden someone reaches out to check your person and discoveres your handgun(s). They demand that you turn them over to them until the police arrive.

    What the heck are you supposed to do? I'd never give up my weapon to a clerk or store manager, but I can easily see them trying to take it from me.
    I've given this some thought, and here is my plan.

    On informing me they plan to detain: "Sir, I understand you are telling me I am not free to leave, and I will comply but I am in doing so under duress. I will await the police in a public area, but I will not accompany you anyplace outside of public view. I have committed no crime, and this incident will have severe repercussions. I would suggest you consider very carefully the next things you plan to do or say."

    If he asks for my weapon: "Sir, I have no information in my possession that assures me you are lawfully able to possess a firearm, and it could be a federal felony for me to provide you with one. I will not relinquish my firearm to anyone but a sworn law enforcement officer. For your own safety, do not attempt to take it by force."

    If there is physical contact, once the police arrive I will initiate a complaint for battery. If there is an attempt to remove an item from my person, then the complaint becomes attempted robbery.

    In the aftermath, someone will be very sorry they made a vary bad choice. And someone else will be very sorry they employed that person.

    99% of the loss prevention folks out there are good folks. The other 1% can be a very serious problem. I am not going to hand any of them a loaded firearm. Ever.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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