May 31st, 2007 11:26 PM
The article isn't clear, but my assumption is that the 'hero' went hands on with the man to try to stop him. My thinking about if he had a gun, he could have kept some distance from the beater and the beatee.
In a situation like this man faced, I would probably verbally challenge the beater and go from there. I would definitely not be in close range with him though. Given a parking lot probably a car between us would be good. If the man and woman stop and agree to leave together, not much I can do. I'll still make a police report though. Anything else would have to go with what was presented.
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
June 1st, 2007 03:47 AM
Lima, if you search through my posts somewhere on this site I told of a night at college where I responded to screams from a dark alley (really not the smartest thing I have ever done, but it was before I carried and I didn't think to call the cops, thinks developed too quickly).
This reminds me of the story of the man who pulled his gun to stop two men who were attempting to rob and rape a woman in a parking garage.
When the two men ran for their lives, the woman collected her purse, jumped in her car and drove away without saying a single word of thanks or even acknowledging his presence.
As she drove away he got a good glimpse of the anti-gun bumper sticker she had on her car. He very likely saved her life she had not one kind word to say to him.
However, I believe he finds solace in the fact that he helped someone as this man can take away the knowledge that he at least TRIED to help someone.
God Bless those people.
Cops showed up while myself and another stranger were keeping a guy from beating on and possibly worse from a girl. She never said a word to either of us, but the police dismissed us soon after showing up.
For some people knowing that they did what they think is right is all they need. Although the police keeping both me and the other samaritan out of the report was a very kind move on their part.
It's a sad state of affairs when someone trying to do good and help someone they believe to need it turns into a victim.
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
June 1st, 2007 04:09 AM
Let that be a lesson to all.
The police were soon on the way, but the woman Sansonetti saved wasn't so grateful.
"She ended up telling the guy let's go honey, the cops are coming and you have warrants, and ended up getting in the car with the gentleman anyway and actually driving around me while I was laying on the ground bleeding," Mikel said.
Be very careful whom you bother to help.
Some will not only be unappreciative, but will leave you to die.
It sucks that this is what the bad people in the world leave the good people to have to decide.
June 1st, 2007 06:21 AM
Lima, your story is truly heartbreaking.
Seek safety at the heart of danger.
Live Easy, Die Hard
June 1st, 2007 10:07 AM
Wow, sure some oblique statements, after Lima's.
Originally Posted by Scott
I would generally agree with Scott, but also add-
If you decide to intervene, you need to use enough force to generate some fear, both in the person you put down, and in by-standers. We'll assume you aren't a socially-retarded Dudley Do Right, jumping into every confrontation, Righting Every Wrong.
The assailant was standing between two cars- go to his back (if it isn't facing you), and stomp his back knee out. Command voice to both parties, "Stay down!", or you could sap him, axe-handle thump him, etc., etc.. Your spouse should be on the phone to 911. It wouldn't hurt if your phone was in hand, either, after taking care of business. Just a thought........
June 1st, 2007 05:02 PM
June 1st, 2007 06:54 PM
What about the guy that was one of the first ccw holders that shot the guy in Walmart because he was stabbing a girl ? That story came up here at one time and most were applauding the guy for stepping in.
It depends on the situation. But I would have a real hard time just standing by and let it happen right in front of me...
June 1st, 2007 07:19 PM
Lima... First of all... I really admire you at how you have recovered. I know you have scars that will last a lifetime. You are also so much stronger now. I feel for anyone who would attempt to victimize you again. And I say attempt, for I believe you are to be a victim No More!
Regarding my earlier post, I hope people don't mistake that I am one who does not get involved. I do! I was pointing out, that as citizens, we are not charged with powers of law enforcement and need to be sure when we respond, we know who the victim is and not get involved in a case of mistaken identity.
I am rather cynical as I stated earlier... but I am also not without compassion either. I wouldn't be a paramedic if I wasn't a compassionate person.
I am armed, so therefore I am not afraid to act, but because I am armed with a deadly weapon, I have to act "cautiously." I have acted and intervened before even when I wasn't armed and perhaps foolishly.
I tend to be more like Chris, and evaluate on a case by case basis as to the extent of my involvement. If I choose not to directly intervene in what appears to be a domestic dispute and fight, I am not going to just walk away either.
I will notify police, report party descriptions, vehicle identifiers and license numbers. I may even follow until police can intercede. I do know if you are on your cell phone and state you are following them, the police will make an effort to get there as quickly as they can. I will also Always Sign a Complaint if necessary.
I also seriously doubt if I would allow someone to be drug across a parking lot by their hair and be abducted in what looks to be an obvious kidnapping. I know how those situations turn out, and it isn't good. I would also not allow a child to be abducted.
Still, I evaluate my involvement carefully and to what extent I will intervene physically. I feel I have a duty and legal responsibility not to unleash my blaster in a case of mistaken identity and know who the bad guy is or isn't.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
June 1st, 2007 09:16 PM
You are quite brave Lima - it takes alot to share those things even with close friends - it's the hardest and most healing thing with those situations.
June 1st, 2007 09:40 PM
I'll have to say sometimes you have to mind your own business until it DOES concern you. I think the man in the original post probably should have called the police. And it does sound like he got awful close to a stranger who obviously was in a rage, to get stabbed. Honorable, yes, but not the smartest move if thought about carefully.
Lima, I am very sorry to hear about your experience. I'm glad that you made it through all of that horror without losing your mind, AND deciding to arm yourself for the next inmate who thinks he can do the same. I think you write great posts and I enjoy having you around. I cant say that I would have attacked the man in your situation, however, I would have certainly at least one or all of : call the police, remembered his and his vehicle description, Tag number, something. I'm a tall, lanky guy so I understand that being a total hero might not be in my best interest. However, I would have provided some very useful information to law enforcement. I know thats not much consolation in hindsight.
I guess the moral of the story is ALWAYS try be a good witness. Get involved at your own discretion, and know the risks involved with doing so. Make rational decisions and use all the facts on hand to base your decisions on.
Unified Sportsmen of Florida Member
June 1st, 2007 10:23 PM
Too bad more folks in general will not step up and call PD or atleast verbally challenge attackers. I have been in the situation of being assaulted before, as well as calling to report an assault.
Carrying a gun makes it harder for us to intervene when less than deadly force is being presented. The risk of H2H , gun retention and having a victim turn on you are all real possibilities.
If you do chose to intervene , please call PD ,get a good description and assess the situation. Find your avenues of escape ,maneuver and check for other aggressors .
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
June 1st, 2007 10:59 PM
I think I kind of hi-jacked this thread... Oops
I posted my story to make a sobering point that I hope makes people think.
I was only seventeen at the time so even if I lived in a concealed carry friendly state it would be useless to me, the minor (at the time).
For all intensive purposes, the law makes eighteen the legal adult age limit because those under eighteen should still be under the protection of their parents or legal guardians. My parents were in another state when this happened.
There was a day and age in this country where people stepped in, no matter who or what was going on. People were afraid to abduct children because they knew that whole cities would be out together, combing neighborhoods, providing of their own time and resources to locate the missing. People were afraid to rob places because someone would recognize them and it wouldn't be long before a police officer was knocking at their door.
We went from a community fed and operated nation, to a nation that closes its eyes and turns away when someone is getting dragged through a door.
Yes, there are many things this man could have done differently. He could have tried to engage from a distance. He could have called the police and tried to keep them there. He could have tried to enlist fellow citizens to help.
You don't have to rush in, guns blazing and try to be the lone ranger or Rambo or anything like that, but I pray to God that you aren't the ones who will close their eyes and turn away either.
This guy was one of the ones who just couldn't close their eyes and turned away. If he had had a gun who knows what would have happened, would he have shot the guy who was assaulting the woman? Maybe.
Would he have been charged with a crime, I don't know. He has the witness of this wife who says he tried to help a woman who was being hit, and that a weapon (the knife) was presented and not only was the threat to the woman who was being hit, but now he was directly threatened and had every right to shoot the attacker (and in my humble opinion, rid the world of one more woman beating low-life who will attempt murder when someone tries to stop him from assaulting someone. I don't think that's much of a loss. Do you?).
He could have very well gotten a pat on the back and sent on his way while the woman whined about her boyfriend being shot. For all we know she could show up in a dumpster a few weeks from now because her boyfriend decided that he just didn't want her anymore and almost stabbing a guy to death was no problem so why should killing his girlfriend be such a huge step up.
Who knows how the situation would have turned out. It may have been a complete success story.
All I know is that I'm proud of the guy for at least trying and I'm very sorry he go hurt.
I would like to shake his hand and thank him for his courage.
June 2nd, 2007 02:43 AM
I drive 0.8 miles to work, and 0.8 miles home.
One night, maybe five years ago, I was on my way home, driving down a 4 lane road (U.S. 1) at about 2 a.m. so the road was deserted. Maybe one or two cars every ten minutes kinda thing.
On the left side of the road, three lanes away, there was a guy and a woman, and he was sort of chasing after her and grabbing at her. Looked likely that they were known to each other. The guy was kind of stumbly, like he was probably really drunk, so he ended up faltering and didn't seem able to hold onto her.
I pulled off to the right and stopped, and opened my window and called out, "Do you want me to call the police?" She screamed out, "YES!" So I did. They arrived a couple of minutes later and I informed them of where they should look. The guy had walked off the sidewalk and disappeared into the driveway of a small block of apartments. I think she had gone that way too, but I don't recall now. When I left, the cops were looking around.
I am glad I was not called upon to physically intervene, as it was a wholly unknown circumstance to walk into. It was probably a boyfriend-girlfriend spat, and like too many have found out, that can end up in a two-against-one situation disfavoring the GG. But perhaps having called the police may have saved this girl.
On another occasion, I took a BIG risk. I was leaving my mother's neighborhood on Singer Island, about to turn onto Blue Heron Blvd. (known in these parts as not-so-nice). As I waited at a light to make a left, late late at night, coming from the right was a girl in a slinky tight green dress, with a scared look on her face. About twenty feet or so behind her was a man (did not get a descriptive look at him). My doors are always locked when I travel, and they were at this time too.
I saw the girl's approach, since I'm a head-on-a-swivel kind of guy, 'specially in a bad area at night. She begged me to let her into the car, and I figured in a fraction of a second, "This is either a robbery setup or this girl really needs my help to get away from this guy."
So when I leaned over to unlock the passenger door, I was wary and tried to be ready for anything. (I say "tried to be," because you just can't actually be ready for anything when you don't really know what's coming.)
She got in, plunked down, breathed a sigh of relief and told me that the guy had been following her and pestering her for a few blocks and wouldn't leave her alone, and she was very scared.
She had been down at the bars near the beach but was quite drunk and had lost touch with her boyfriend, and lost some of her belongings as well. (She did still have her license, though, which I ended up getting to see.) With no way to get back in touch with her boyfriend, with whom she was staying, I drove her to his place, which was between my mom's and my place. He was nowhere to be found, so I actually took her back to my place (probably a stupid move that I wouldn't repeat), gave her some juice, let her sleep it off on my couch, and in the morning she called him and he came and picked her up.
I might have saved her from getting raped that night, the little minx. (And yes, she was a hottie, but not too bright given her behavior and the mess she got herself into: drunk, penniless, lost, etc.)
Crazy days. That was back around 2001. No such adventures since then, really.
June 2nd, 2007 02:48 AM
I remember from a college psyc class about some type "first responder phobia" that many people have. Oddly the same person that would gladly be the "5th" person to stop and help a is to freaked out to be the "1st" person to stop and help. The more people that don't help the worse it gets. It is a real and documented problem.
Personally, I'm all for "minding my own business" and due to my profession have seen first hand many times good deeds get punished; however, I do believe that when we witness a "crime" and do nothing to stop it we have, in a sad way, given our approval to it.
I learned this lesson as a child when my parents disciplined me for not sticking up for a classmate that was getting picked on. I have never been a big kid, and did not find it my job to take on a bully. But, I learned that if I turned my back and did nothing then the bully kept picking on the kid and one day that kid might be me. But if I engaged the situation, one of two things happened, the bully would be embarrassed by my "calling out" of his actions and leave, or two he would turn those actions towards me. Afterwards I knew that I didn't have to get in the middle of it, but at least I'd helped someone that needed helping.
As adults these actions have greater consequence as the BG may now shoot or stab you, when you step in to help, but more importantly your not saving someone from being "picked on", but likely from a deadly situation.
Perhaps the Biblical parable of the Good Samaritan just stuck with me.
But if we as sheepdogs don't stop to help, who will?
June 4th, 2007 09:43 AM
Interesting you mention that. The parable did not have "impact" when it was told because the Samaritan was the 3rd (IIRC) to pass, but stopped to render aid. It was significant because Samaritans were 1) unclean, and 2) did not follow the proscribed laws. Who is more likely to intervene? The "thug", who's been arrested for A&B, but who has some "basic sensibilities", or John Soccerdaddy, making sure his children don't see someone being beaten? Choices, choices.....
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