You Won, You Also Lose?

This is a discussion on You Won, You Also Lose? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Sig229 I thought the word Intruder would be clear as to someone is breaking IN the home. You should always be as ...

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Thread: You Won, You Also Lose?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    I thought the word Intruder would be clear as to someone is breaking IN the home.
    You should always be as plain spoken as possible. Intruder means different things to different people. That can be someone who is simply somewhere they have no business being, or you say intruder to a naval aviator and they think of the A-6 attack jet. To us bikers an Intruder is a Suzuki V-twin cruiser. ( I had a 1987 Intruder 1400, Sweeet bike!) But the biggest problem was the second part of your statement. " I have a gun and will use it" Unless you have witnesses present that can back your story, the prosecution can have a field day with that. You have just stated your intent to use your gun. That can used to show premeditation. You have just gone from being the home owner defending himself to a vigilante laying in ambush. It is all in how the prosecutor wants to spin it.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array Sig229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    You should always be as plain spoken as possible. Intruder means different things to different people. That can be someone who is simply somewhere they have no business being, or you say intruder to a naval aviator and they think of the A-6 attack jet. To us bikers an Intruder is a Suzuki V-twin cruiser. ( I had a 1987 Intruder 1400, Sweeet bike!) But the biggest problem was the second part of your statement. " I have a gun and will use it" Unless you have witnesses present that can back your story, the prosecution can have a field day with that. You have just stated your intent to use your gun. That can used to show premeditation. You have just gone from being the home owner defending himself to a vigilante laying in ambush. It is all in how the prosecutor wants to spin it.
    Yeah I guess your right.
    After all this is a Motorcycle and an Aviation board.

    Come on man.


    And in the states I have lived in, if someone broke into your house and is threatening you in anyway you have a RIGHT to use lethal force.

    So how the F would that make you look like a Vigilante?
    The BG has broken into your house!
    If that makes you a vigilante where your from, you need to move out brother. I sure hope TX hasnt gone down the Commie state route with defense. I know they wont let you OC there anymore.
    (dont get me wrong, I love TX)
    Primary Carry Gun: Sig Sauer 229~R (.40cal w/ Golden Saber JHP's)

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229 View Post
    Yeah I guess your right.
    After all this is a Motorcycle and an Aviation board.
    If you recall we were discussing your statement to a 9-1-1 operator, not to people on this board. You have no way of knowing the background of the person you get when you call 9-1-1. You keep changing your story to make it fit your world view. Your first statement was " There is an intruder at my house, I have a gun and will use it." Nowhere does it say he has gained entry to the house. Nowhere does it say he is threatening you in any way.
    Nowhere does your statement even say that you are at home where the intruder is. What you are doing is what is refered to as "assuming facts not in evidence."
    But then again, I only have fifteen years in law enforcement, ten of them training 9-1-1 operators, so what do I know? I guess I should just leave this stuff up to subject matter experts such as yourself.

  5. #34
    Member Array denverd0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig229
    If a swarm of cops coming to your house with guns drawn, wouldnt you want them to know who's the good guy? And that your armed so they dont mow ya down?
    I don't see how telling the 911 dispatcher that you have a gun helps in any way with this.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
    I don't see how telling the 911 dispatcher that you have a gun helps in any way with this.
    Normal procedure for a burglary in progress type call or one where you have someone at gunpoint is for the 9-1-1 operator to keep you on the line until the officers are on the scene and speaking to you directly. The operators are supposed to continuously update the responding officers as to how the situation is evolving. If the responding officers know that you are holding a suspect at gun point, and your description, and the bad guys description, you have a much greater chance of being able to simply holster your weapon. If they dont have that information you have a very good chance of viewing a shotgun from the wrong end and having to get down on the ground and doing all of that unpleasant stuff while they sort out who is who.
    Last edited by mcp1810; June 8th, 2007 at 08:57 PM. Reason: typo

  7. #36
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
    I don't see how telling the 911 dispatcher that you have a gun helps in any way with this.
    In my jurisdiction, we will specifically ask you if you have any weapons. We know the law and know you can shoot, but we want to know if you have any weapons in case the officers show up at the door so we can tell you when to put it away. It's officer safety. We also ask if you've been drinking, if you have done any drugs that day and if you have dogs for the same reason. We don't really care if a BG walks in your house and you drop him, good for you, bad for him. (Can you tell I work for a sheriff and not a police chief? lol)

    But I can tell you that if you're holding someone at gunpoint and they don't know who-is-who, you can bet your butt that things will go south quickly. Standard procedure is to treat everyone as a BG until they have proof otherwise. Also, the direction of your gun points to where you're paying attention to. If LEOs bust through your door yelling, you naturally turn to see what's making the noise, your muzzle naturally turns to the noise as well. BANG and they don't have to worry about your firearm anymore. You don't get to tell the LEOs your description before or after they arrive, that's our job. And until a LEO on scene gives you a blatant reason to think otherwise, we're your best friend while you have that gun pointed at someone because we're the only ones that can keep that kind of thing from happening.

    To answer the original question, the very first thing you should say is where you are. I always say, "I can send the world to you, I just need to know where to send them." If you're driving, start making it a habit of making a mental note of the current milepost and about how far you are away from the next one. If you're on surface streets, know which direction you're heading and the closest intersection. Because you're still moving, you also need to give updates of where you are to the dispatcher.

    The second thing is to tell them what's going on... In simple, to-the-point terms. If someone is recklessly driving or trying to run you off the road, say so. Don't go into a giant story of well I was at this intersection and this guy got behind me, started honking, started trying to play bumper cars with my car... Get to the point, quickly. If you volunteer the information rather than having to be interrogated as to what information the dispatcher needs you will get help faster because we don't have to ask.

    Finally, get the description of the vehicle. And that doesn't mean that you need to have the full plate. If you two are still moving and you're talking to the dispatcher on your cellphone, give a flat description (e.g. green 2 or 4 door sedan). If help is on the way let the dispatcher know where they are in relation to you (e.g. front/back) and the description of your car. When a LEO is given a description of two cars traveling together and sees it, it's just about as good as a license plate.

    Remember: location (and keep it updated), what happened, description of their car and your car. That's it. We'll take care of the rest. Another good thing to give right away is a call back number (e.g. your cellphone number) because you might get disconnected. A good dispatcher will only need that little information to start people your way and will slip in the rest of the questions later in the small "lull" points like your name, home address, etc.

    Example: "I'm going eastbound from This Street on That Street and there's a car behind me that's been trying to run me off the road. It's a blue mustang and I'm in a white stratus. Now we're coming up on Other Street now and it's still behind me..."
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
    I don't see how telling the 911 dispatcher that you have a gun helps in any way with this.
    It allows them to inform the responding officers to expect that there is an armed goodguy victim they will encounter when they arrive.

    There are some very good tips on this in the NRA manuals. (NRA Guide to Personal Defense Outside the Home is the one I have. I'm sure this stuff is also in the "in the Home" version as well.)

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