You Won, You Also Lose?
This is a discussion on You Won, You Also Lose? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Today I was leaving a gas station and driving my car instead of my truck.
I noticed a huge F350 following me as soon as ...
June 6th, 2007 12:59 AM
You Won, You Also Lose?
Today I was leaving a gas station and driving my car instead of my truck.
I noticed a huge F350 following me as soon as I got in my car, the two guys in the front kept staring at me.
Now, I just moved here, so I didn't know them at all.
As I got onto the highway, they got right up next to me and really started gawking and getting closer into my lane, almost moving me into the shoulder.
I slowed down to let them go on their way and they got in front of me.
I held my Sig in my hand getting ready for anything.
They got off the next exit as I went on my way.
But it got me wondering.
Lets say they ran me off the road and got out with a weapon.
I had no where to flee, so its either fight or die.
I have had some tactical training, so I more than likely have the upper hand.
If my life was in danger, and I used lethal force, and won.
Who would the police believe?
With no cameras on these secluded highways, they have zero evidence to go on.
I could just see the Jury being told that "Since I have had some tactical training and carrying a firearm" I was "out of control" or how ever the State wanted to smear me.
But a real question is, if no witnesses are around. How do you defend yourself in court?
Primary Carry Gun: Sig Sauer 229~R (.40cal w/ Golden Saber JHP's)
June 6th, 2007 12:59 AM
June 6th, 2007 01:04 AM
Most likely , if they are trying stuff like this on an unknown, they have a record. also, if they force you off the road, impact marks on vehicles , skid marks ect might help to alibi your story. also your standing as a law abiding citizen , co worker testimony , ect should work in your favor.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
June 6th, 2007 01:05 AM
You are missing a key part of your "tactical training".
June 6th, 2007 01:15 AM
Okay, care to enlighten me?
Originally Posted by SIXTO
Is it the three "S"? "Shoot Shovel and Shut Up"? Not going to do that!
Primary Carry Gun: Sig Sauer 229~R (.40cal w/ Golden Saber JHP's)
June 6th, 2007 07:44 AM
Well unfortunately in Ohio you would be 'forced' to throw it in reverse and back the he!! outta there as we have the duty to retreat...no castle doctrine here, so if you didn't show reverse burnouts trying to get away you already lost 1 piece of yer defense.
(of course thats Ohio)
I would say "good standing' in the community helps ya, you could show yer not a "loose cannon", yer training was a responsible activity(of course some would argue "you did yer training so you could be more deadly!"). Also in theory, and assuming it went down like this, "dead men tell no tales".
I believe the state would also go after you for not 'driving away'..no matter how impossible that could be at the time they would go after you on that point...and maybe "you should have used yer vehicle as a weapon instead of yer gun".
Just possibilities I see here.
Last edited by SOLOLUCKY; June 6th, 2007 at 07:49 AM.
This is mine. That is yours.
Lets keep it that way.
June 6th, 2007 09:29 AM
Make sure you know your state laws, and operate within them. If you 1)fear for your life, 2) have no duty, or the inability to retreat, and 3) if, after the first one goes down, the second is doing anything other than running empty-handed away from you, he gets BG repellant too.
Call 911. Move nothing. Be reloaded and ready to respond to further threats- you never know if Bubba's brother might drive by. If you have a camera, take pictures of as much as you can, and give them to your attorney, even if it doesn't seem like they will be needed. Say nothing, other than you feared for your life, they ran you off the road, they came at you with a weapon(s), and you're really shook up. Yes, you need to call your attorney. Unless something was squirrelly, you would be ROR.
June 6th, 2007 09:59 AM
Say a quick prayer to Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration and burn some rubber. Call 911 as you get the heck outta there; you've got the make, model, and plate number. Chances are if you make things more difficult, they will seek fame and fortune elsewhere.
While these guys seem to be in desperate need of shooting, you have better ways to spend your summer than talking to cops and lawyers. No matter what the law says, shooting should be the very, very last resort.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
June 6th, 2007 10:11 AM
You were aware and that is half the battle IMHO. when you say that you "held my Sig in my hand getting ready for anything" was this while driving? If so, I would have done it differently and kept my gun holstered and both hands on the wheel.
I have to go with the Cellphone tactic as a first. If you have a cellphone with voice command/activated, get a Bluetooth! It is amazing how this little cheap gadget helps. one touch of a buttin and you can talk to 911 while in total control of your vehicle.
Quick queestion slightly off topic. Sixto and other LEOs, what kind of information would a 911 require in order to process a call with the due priority needed? What should we say first, second, third, etc?
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
June 6th, 2007 10:48 AM
Nope thats not what I mean at all. Being trained to me means knowing what to do and how to handle the situation from begining to end, and if your in the right you will come out on top if you follow proper instruction.
Originally Posted by Sig229
Self defense "training" is very lacking in this area, folks seem to pass being able to punch holes in paper as being "trained". As you have figured out, there is a whole lot more to self defense than being able to shoot your gun, throw a punch etc.
Its just a suggestion, but maybe look into some legal update classes held at a community college. They have these every year or so for the legal community, and "average Joes" can attend for a small fee.
This will give you some insight on how the system works, even though it may not be CCW specific.
June 6th, 2007 11:08 AM
That is why it is (of course) best to avoid any potential deadly confrontation.
You may win the confrontation but, you will still be at the mercy of whatever may follow.
It is always a possibility that you'll "win the battle" but, lose the war.
AVOID trouble, confrontation, and the use of deadly force if it is at all possible.
Those are wise words that need to be paid attention to.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
June 6th, 2007 11:11 AM
I'm with Miggy on this (and my sister.. (she is not a member on this site, but I'll explain)).
My sister's husband is a police officer. They live in Wisconsin so no concealed carry is available.
One night, while driving home from work, something very similar to what you experienced happened to her. Two men in a truck were honking their horn at her, driving recklessly and she thought they just wanted to pass. When she pulled off to the side of the road to let them pass, they tried to box her in with their truck.
At this point she was terrified.
The first thing she did was call her husband while trying to back up.
He was on duty at the other end of the county and told her to call the station immediately, which she did (she should have done that first, but she figured her hubby could come and save her).
She was able to back up and get around them and speed up.
When the dispatcher came on the line she told him what was going on an requested any available unit to come and help her, she also said that she was going to try to lead them right to the station. She reported the road she was on, which why she was headed, any local landmarks to give them a clearer idea of exactly where she was.
She stayed on the line, reporting everything, color of car, make, model, parts of the license plate number when it was visible. She was TERRIFIED but knew the worst thing she could do was stop the car.
She turned a corner (and maybe just because it was a police officer's wife, or because it's a small community and there was nothing else going on) there were three squad cars waiting for them.
The men in the truck tried to flee, two of the squads took after them while the third one stayed with my sister to get her statement.
If you're in a car, as long as they aren't shooting at you while you're driving (which usually only happens in the movies anyway) you have options. Even if they try to block you in, you have a Reverse function on your car, and hopefully you have a cell phone. The MOMENT anyone starts trying to purposefully use their vehicle to stop yours, call the police, at least to report reckless driving. Tell them that you fear they are trying to push you off the road and KEEP MOVING. Stopping your car is one of the worst things you can do, even if you are angry and WANT to confront these people. That's also the worst thing you could do because the first thing someone will ask is, "Why did you stop?"
If they FORCE you to stop.. As in, they drive you off the road and you hit a tree and your vehicle is disabled, you should already be on the phone with the police, and your "witness" will be the 911 recorded call.
If you can't flee and they start coming after you with weapons, SURE, take a stand, but it should be well established on that 911 recording that you did everything you could to keep this from happening and the idiots who drove you off the road are the ones at fault.
June 6th, 2007 11:35 AM
On the road in your vehicle there is always somewhere to flee.
Throw your vehicle into reverse and leave that way.
If blocked in by two cars then select low gear and push your way through the other car hitting it in a rear corner using the opposite corner (not front!) of your own car.
Or if surrounded by persons on foot armed or unarmed who mean to do you harm, again select low gear...plot your path of least resistance and quickest escape...then drive through and/or up over them.
You do what you has to be done, to get yourself home safely and in one piece.
Below is an example of what can and does happen to people who do not know as much or have trouble thinking on the fly toward their own survival. keep in mind the largest and most useful weapon at hand is the 2K+ motorized vehicle that you are in control of.
As reported by CBS11TV.com:
Exclusive: Teens Pelt Driver With Bricks, Stones
Woman Says She Only Tried To Stop A Fight Between Them
(CBS 11 News) DALLAS A woman trying to break up a fight says she was attacked in broad daylight. The woman's truck was pelted with bricks and stones by nearly 50 teenagers in an upscale neighborhood in Dallas. The victim says it was caught on video, but the tape has yet to surface...
The full story can be found at; http://cbs11tv.com/local/local_story_066221802.html
Edit: After posting I noticed Limatunes own story.
Agreed 100%...being forced off the road is not the end of your options as most any car can and will drive over grass, gravel, dirt, and even snow as well as tarmac.
It ain't over until the coroner cuts you...think and fight to your last breath.
"Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." - Malcolm X
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
June 6th, 2007 11:36 AM
June 6th, 2007 11:40 AM
This is the MOST important thing to remember!!! Do not stop your car unless you have absolutely NO OTHER OPTION!
Originally Posted by limatunes
Heck! Have you ever watched any of those "Cops" shows? It is not that easy for the police to force a car to stop, and they are trained! The average Joe-Bad-Guy is going to have a hugely difficult time forcing you to stop, unless you make the decision that you WANT to stop and "teach him a lesson." If that's the case... well, let's not even go there.
June 6th, 2007 12:33 PM
One of the many reasons I'm going to enjoy having a bigger 4x4 pickup is that I can tackle bits of terrain a lot of regular cars can't. I've already used my current (non 4x4) pickup to safely dodge and drive over obstacles, including driving over a high curb to avoid an accident.
Large, high ground clearance vehicles might not excel at taking sharp corners at high speeds, but what it lacks in agility it'll take over in ramming power and terrain tackling.
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
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