Friend's Scary Situation
This is a discussion on Friend's Scary Situation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Betty, I hope your friend has had the opportunity, in a calmer, dispassionate setting, to tell her brother just how foolish this was.... He never ...
June 8th, 2007 07:42 PM
Betty, I hope your friend has had the opportunity, in a calmer, dispassionate setting, to tell her brother just how foolish this was.... He never should do anything this unwise again. Just holding her child and going "Boo!" is as far as he ever needs to go...ever again.
June 9th, 2007 01:37 AM
What would I have done?
Thanked him for the reminder to always be aware of my surroundings, to keep a close eye on the kids, and let him know that if he tried a similar prank again he might well be shot before I recognized him.
June 9th, 2007 01:54 AM
Assuming I'm the parent and hoping I keep my wits the first thing is to make sure I keep the other two close by incase he has help. If I've got something heavey handy (without Sandy) like a gallon of Ice Cream chuck it at his head and start yelling like there is no tommorrow--because without the other kid life will never be normal again.
I don't know if I'd have a sibling after that.
"[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
They are left in full possession of them."
Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
June 9th, 2007 03:38 AM
Yall a kidnapping situation involving me is why my mother started to carry. I was probably 3 or 4 and I was riding one of those little rides at a chain store not unlike Walmart. My grandmothers were both with me and mom was at the register when a car pulled up outside and was left idling. The driver came in making a B line for me. mom stepped in his way and he took off, jumped in the car and flew. She has always suspected her father had it set up but Lord only knows. After that she carried a revolver for those situations.
"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."
-James Earl Jones
June 9th, 2007 05:31 AM
Let's say I was her, and I was armed.
Originally Posted by Betty
I wouldn't risk shooting at him right away, because of the risk of hitting my daughter or others in the vicinity.
I would take off running after him, and yell, "That man took my daughter! Watch my kids, and call the police!" Continue screaming that, or words to that effect.
Chase the man (who is burdened with a possibly squirming, hitting, biting, screaming human being) with all my power, until I catch up.
He isn't going to carry her, running, to the next county. He's going to try to get into a vehicle. When he/she arrive at a vehicle, I aim at him and demand that he release her and get on the ground face-down. He might be meeting an accomplice who has a van door open. I'd shoot at either of them; they are committing a forcible felony and my daughter's life is in the balance. Yes, there is a potential to hit my daughter; but if I don't fire (or somehow make them let her go) she'd a goner. Never gonna be seen again, most likely.
Hopefully, someone has called police by then.
Shooting at him on the run is a bad idea, but he pretty much has to stop not far away, try to put her into a vehicle, and get out of there. That's your opportunity to take him out. Face it, if you let her get away, you're probably never getting her back, so you might as well go balls-out to fight for her. I mean, what more do you have to lose?
June 9th, 2007 05:42 AM
I don't see anything wrong with yelling, "STOP! I have a gun and I will shoot you!!"
Originally Posted by tapout1003
HE doesn't know that you won't. For all you know, he believes television, and that you can shoot minuscule objects from 100 feet away easily, or effortlessly "kneecap" someone in motion. He's going to be adrenalized and not necessarily thinking clearly and also not necessarily ready for someone to jump up and oppose him. Maybe yelling that you will shoot him will cause him to stop and drop her. At that point, who cares if he gets away? Get a description of him and his vehicle, and get on the horn to the cops right away. From then on, it's their baby.
Kid's as good as dead if you don't stop these guys somehow, anyway. If it's a choice between let them take her away, and shoot with the possibility of hitting her, I'd take the shot. Many gunshot wounds are survivable, to begin with. Then there's the idea that if you wound her, they're probably going to drop her there and take off. But with luck, you'd hit the kidnaper.
I'm very nervous about putting the gun in play in this type of situation. Lot's of people and things for the bullet to go into if it exits him. Including the kid.
June 9th, 2007 05:44 AM
Originally Posted by havegunjoe
That is just plain disturbing. Terrifying, actually.
June 9th, 2007 08:56 AM
That's one bad situation ... and it could happen to anyone, so easily.
Yup. That's about it.
Originally Posted by 0.02
In younger days, I could easily run after the fleeing kidnapper, but these days I've got a leg/hip injury that precludes all of that. So, my options are much more limited.
Generally speaking, being with three children when one is snatched doesn't leave many options. Kidnappers would rightly assume that such a person couldn't leave the other two kids alone. If, and only if, the snatch happened near to the doors and cashiers, I might have the presence of mind to leave the kids temporarily with a willing cashier, then run after the kidnapper in the hopes of either (a) stopping him or (b) at least identifying the vehicle.
Steps I'd hope to do, if everything went right:
- Assume head-in-sand syndrome on the part of everyone within spittin' distance. Thus, I'd have to stop it myself.
- Leave kids with cashier, if I could quickly find a willing cashier.
- Yell for assistance from three/four people near the door; demand police be called to respond to a kidnapping in progress.
- Run after the perp, to either stop him or ID the vehicle. I can run, but I'll pay for it in medical bills to "fix" the leg after the damage I'll do. Good trade, that, given my child's being kidnapped before my eyes.
- If I caught up to the perp, if I were still breathing then he'd have to kill me in order to keep the child. There's no way I'd allow him to leave, being armed and absolutely willing to terminate his crime, no matter the cost to him.
- Demand he stop, drop my child, then get on the ground.
- If he failed, consider my adrenaline dump and whether I could do that for him (ventilation). Either his head or legs are available targets, given how an adult would be holding a child in such a situation.
- Risks would be: my child, peopl beyond the target. But, if he gets away, my child's likely dead anyway. So, not a bad trade.
- If I only caught up to the fleeing car, I'd hope to get the description and plate info. Not likely, but hopeful.
- If I got there but found nothing, there aren't many good outcomes to be expected.
It's highly likely the kidnapper's a lone attacker. If that's the case, then he's not going anywhere if I catch him. If, however, he's got cohorts, that complicates things quite a bit. Wouldn't surprise me if they weren't armed, but you never know.
Head-in-sand syndrome is common, with folks witnessing something going sideways right in front of them. Likely, nobody would be heading out the door with me, to assist. Possibly, someone would be calling police. In such a situation, I'd hope to quickly find a willing teller to watch the remaining two children and then go after the perp myself. That's about all that can be relied upon, in that situation.
Since this is was a real situation with your friend, I hope she has a serious sit-down discussion with the entire family about the risk/reward of such things. If it were me, at that point if my family didn't know I was armed, they now would be told. I'd show my resolve to immediately stop such a thing and identify what could easily happen to a person who tried such a thing. We'd come to agreement that such a "joke" would never be attempted again. Given today's realities, it's simply not funny. And, a quick response might well result in bloodshed, if positive identification of the brother was not quick enough. Nobody wants that, amongst family members. I trust that the brother's become a Buddhist monk, as partial repentance for his thoughtless behavior ...
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
June 9th, 2007 10:56 AM
I have been preparing for this situation since my divorce and therefore am probably more "ready" for this to happen (waiting for it) than most. Violence of action, tackle, yell and chase him. Once the scene starts security is likely to head for the exits to stop escape. But you NEED to cause a scene. Then when you get ahold of the BG, commence to the beat down, you probably got a few minutes of "reactionary rage" that you can get away with.
They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Previously known as "cjm5874"
June 9th, 2007 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey
Now his partner(s) have 2 more kids in their "care". Beautiful diversion...
As a former bodyguard, I know many ways to "detain" someone.
Spirits help him if I get my hands on him.
Fortunately, my kids are old enough to watch themselves if I was busy discussing the wrongs of grabbing someone else's child with some loser.
On a hot day, his face might even make a nice print in the pavement
June 9th, 2007 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Free American
oops...... did I just agree with something that was borderline
I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.
June 9th, 2007 06:56 PM
Well, the least she could have done was kicked her younger brother's butt for scaring her like that! DARN!
I kinda wonder what I would have done if I had observed this and seen the guy running toward me. With a child in his arms, I might have tackled him... definately no way to use a weapon.
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
June 9th, 2007 09:28 PM
The only situation I would be in is having my 5 y/o grandaughter with me. If she was snatched, the chase would be on instantaneously since l wouldn't have to worry about leaving other small kids unattended.
More than likely someone else like my wife or daughter (grandkids mother) or son-in-law would be with me, so one of them would be calling cops and giving description if not helping with chase.
If I was just another store patron who witnessed a kid being snatched as decribed in Betty's post, the chase would be on immediately!
I know way too well how these "small child" stranger abductions (kidnappings) play out, and I could not stand by ignoring the situation.
(I am also aware of possible non-custodial child abductions and again, in that case... the method of the abduction will usually show that the person abducting the child is a non-custodial parent in which a court has already declared not to have custody of the child so I'm not as concerned if a possible injury to that person insues during the chase)
What I would do is give chase in an attempt to gain as much identifying information as possible. If I am able to catch the person, I will detain them, with the least amount of force as necessary until it can be sorted out by responding LEO's. (I feel in the rare case of true mistaken identity, given the seriousness of what a real kidnapping would be, I would be ok for my "good faith" intervention. That is why I have an attorney on retainer).
I would not pull my weapon unless they turned to confront me and produced a weapon. (At the shooting range whether with the swat team or on my own, I do practice shooting around a hostage in scenario based shooting drills, although I would hate doing it in real life, I do train and practice for it).
If I can not reach the abductor prior to them getting to a vehicle, I will hopefully be close enough to get an accurate vehicle description and or license plate number and direction of travel for LEO.
If my vehicle is close enough, I may follow as close as possible (in a surveillance mode) until LEO could coordinate an intercept giving instructions via my cell phone (although I do not have a mobile LEO radio mounted in my car, I often have my portable radio in my car and can talk directly with dispatch or the responding officers).
I would NOT engage in a high speed pursuit however, as that is not only foolish but is very hazardous in so many ways, especially to the other drivers on the road.
Bear in mind... all the above is just preplanned scenarios I have laid out ahead of time because I do have a 5 y/o grandchild. In the heat of the moment of an actual event, methods and plans may change on the spur of the moment based on the given situation
I do however have a plan and at the very least I will respond in some manner to prevent an abduction of anyone going by undetected.
Last edited by Bark'n; June 9th, 2007 at 09:42 PM.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
June 9th, 2007 10:04 PM
Sounds like Uncle deserved whatever she could dish out, for sure tell your kids to do just that & figure out who it is later, Iam not sure how bad the outcome would be for someone that tried to take my son or anybodys baby for that matter. He better pray i know him & its a prank but hell still never do that again..
June 10th, 2007 12:13 AM
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