June 11th, 2007 06:28 PM
When seconds count, the police respond within minutes..
June 11th, 2007 08:04 PM
I'd grab my gun first, secure mom in a safe space second, reach out to the neighbor to let him/her know we are all okay and thank you for coming with aid third, if reasonably safe I'd eyeball the BG to see where he was going/went fourth...I _would not_ go chasing after him atleast not under MA criminal and civil state laws...and last I'd dial 9-1-1 .
I would flat out ignore the request of the dispatcher to not arm myself. He is not a police he's just a citizen dispatcher akin to the nurses aide we most commonly get when we dial up our kids pediatrician. A request or suggestion is one thing, a command with bite to it is another. I'd grab my .45...probably two of them and spare mags to share with mom or the neighbor. I would not hand over my sidearm to nobody, not even the helpful neighbor.
My gun, my bullets, my legal and civil responsibility...if he misses and hits somebody or something else or happens to pop the BG in the back whilst still attempting to flee.
"You want to find an outlaw, hire an outlaw. You want to find a Dunkin' Donuts, call a cop." - Leonard Smalls, 'Raising Arizona'
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
June 11th, 2007 08:10 PM
she should have grabbed a long gun, once the BG was loose and running around. 911 is a call for backup, not a call for first line of defense.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
June 11th, 2007 08:21 PM
I think that would be "Mutha"
Originally Posted by retsupt99
June 11th, 2007 08:56 PM
Reminds me of the punchline of a 911-call-themed joke:
"M'am, did you make sure he's dead?"
"One second, I'll check..."
"Ok, thanks M'am"
BLAM BLAM BLAM
"Yup, he's dead."
June 11th, 2007 10:07 PM
I think she should have told the 911 operator to shut up and just get the police there as fast as possible or she was going to shoot the SOB. That might have sped the cops up a bit.
Don't tell me not to get my weapon (of course mine would already have been on me, as it is right now) or I might just tell you were you should go.
June 11th, 2007 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Sig P239
As someone who has the unenviable pleasure of being on the receiving end of 911, lemme give you guys a few tips.
You want to give the 911 operator pertinent details. You call 911, you want them to know who you are, where you are, what you need (IE. fire, police, ems), why you are calling. After those specifics, 911 is just going to be "reading the card" to gather info THEY think might be important. YOU are the one who needs help so only YOU know what's important/ Tell them what you think is important and then either speakerphone them or leave the phone online and take care of what you need to. Don't waste time staying on the phone with them if you have more pressing needs. Don't hang up! Leave the phone open and place it aside. In E911 areas, leaving the phone open keeps the address of that number open on the screen for the op to see it. Even cell phones can give the op a tower location in E911 if the phone is left open and online.
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER tell 911 something you *think* might get the fire, police, or EMS people there quicker! People have DIED because callers have told 911 ops something that kept responding units from getting to the scene as quickly as they may have if the caller had only not made something up!! There have been cases where a person has been the victim of some form of traumatic injury where the caller stated that the victim "has been shot and needs the ambulance RIGHT NOW!!" when in fact they have NOT been shot nor had there been ANYTHING even remotely related to having been shot, where the victim has died with help right around the corner. If you need medical right now, especially if you need medical right now, DO NOT tell 911 something you *think* might get them there quicker. Anything even remotely related to violence puts any responding fire or EMS unit into staging away from the scene! Telling 911 that someone has been stabbed or shot, when in fact they have not, can keep responding units blocks away until a PD unit can get there first and secure the scene! We will not go direct to the scene in something like that until we are assured that the scene is safe. That's how every fire or EMS unit works. Scene safety is our first priority. We CANNOT help you until PD has secured the scene! If your intestines are hanging out because you slipped and fell on a pitchfork, don't tell your wife to call 911 and say you've been shot or stabbed. You'll be more than dead by the time we get there! Tell 911 the truth about what has happened and follow the steps I outlined above. Then do what you need to do to help until the pros arrive.
Keep in mind that 911 does NOT always work! I know of many instances where 911 DID NOT EVEN ANSWER THE CALL!! I'm sure you all have heard the stories. I'll tell you right now that they are not made up! 911 technology is not infallible. There are people on the end of that call that are infallible as they come. Most 911 ops truly enjoy the job they do and realize that they are the first go-to person for someone when they need help. But, you always have the people who are in it just for the paycheck and could care less whether or not YOU, or your FAMILY, live or die at the end of the day. Those people are out there and they are on the other end of that call. Everyone should be prepared to "wait it out" until help can arrive. Don't short change yourself! Be ready to deal with the situation at hand until the professionals show up to help you.
I deal with 911 all the time and for the most part, they do do a decent job. For the most part! Don't expect perfection cause you surely are NOT going to get it from 911! If you don't know basic EMS skills, basic survival skills, basic fire skills.... MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO GET THAT TRAINING!! Know CPR (the latest guidlines too! Did you know that rescue breathing is no longer the standard for layperson CPR? Compressions, compressions, compressions!), know basic first aid, know basic shooting skills and safe gun handling, know how to use a fire extinguisher correctly and how to protect your family if you can't get out of the house during a fire! These are some of the things YOU should know to help yourself and your family. Having those basic skills will make the difference while your waiting for the pros to show up.
Life and death is measured oftentimes in seconds and not minutes. 911 can get the pros responding to you when you need help, but it's your responsibility to make sure that when they arrive that they have all the help you can give them to secure a viable outcome for everyone!
I hope that didn't come off corny!! lol!
Last edited by gddyup; June 11th, 2007 at 10:59 PM.
"You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.
<----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)
June 11th, 2007 10:55 PM
I hope most here never get into an identical situation. If that woman or her nieghbor would have shot that BG they would have gotten fried in the courts. For we as civilians(non-LEO) it is unwise to run down the BG's. It's not covered in the reasonable fear for life and limb.
“You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
June 11th, 2007 11:50 PM
Me: Go and get the weapon? Okay...
Originally Posted by limatunes
Last edited by Thumper; June 11th, 2007 at 11:56 PM.
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
June 12th, 2007 12:10 AM
Janq, nothing personal here but I want to clear up some misconceptions so it might look like I am busting your chops a bit.
Originally Posted by Janq
First of the vast majority of 9-1-1 centers in this country are understaffed. As a result of this many departments actually have sworn officers on overtime answering 9-1-1 calls, so it is quite possible that when you call you may be speaking to an officer and not a civillian. Your analogy of the civillian dispatcher to a nurses aid is misleading. Not many nurses aides have to go to school longer than the nurses do! (except maybe the slooow ones) In my department your had to go through a twenty four week academy, and then survive three Field Training Officers before you could work the road on your own. FTO was generally six to twelve weeks. So basically you went from Joe Citizen to Officer Friendly in less than nine months. If you wanted to be a dispatcher, you would not even sit at phone console with a trainer until you had successfully completed a six week classroom phase. A large part of that classroom time was on constitutional and state and local laws. You would not see a radio for six months. If you were really sharp you could get cut loose after twelve months of training and observation. If you were close, but not quite there after fifty weeks we might extend you another six months. Even with all of this time and training we usually washed out about ninety percent of our rookies. At one point we went eighteen months without a single person making it to permanent status. That was about sixty candidates that didn't make it through the process. I challenge you to find a police academy with an attrition rate that high.
An important thing to remember is that all 9-1-1 calls are recorded. If you choose to disregard what the 9-1-1 operator tells you, you do so at your own peril. If things go south and you end up in a courtroom as a defendant you can bet your last nickel they will have that recording to play for the jury. Like I had said before, they write the S.O.P.s for us, tell us what they want us to say, to make us "lawyer proof". Think about all of those sheeple out there that your jury pool would be drawn from. How many of those million marching moms or members of the Brady bunch would you want to have sitting in judgement of you? How do you think they would react to you calling 9-1-1 and not obeying the "commandments" of the operator? Remember, we have a great legal system in this country, it's the justice system that needs work!
June 12th, 2007 12:10 AM
I love the tag line someone here has about stuff happening in seconds while cops respond in minutes. Too true.
With all due respect [blah-blah-blah], cops are just glorified janitors when it comes to protecting you and yours. They show up after the bodies are all laid out, wrap their pretty yellow tape around everything and take their pictures. If you're still alive, one of the cops might even give you a business card.
Don't ask 911--or anyone--if it's OK to grab your pistola to defend your life and your loved ones. Never surrender your right to protect yourself and don't expect some "tool" to do it for you!
Don't forget to bow as the chariot passes.
June 12th, 2007 12:27 AM
I have to disagree with you there. I've been doing this stuff (911) for over 10 years. Telling me to "shut up and just get the police there as fast as possible" doesn't get the officers there any faster. It just tends to frustrate me and raise your blood pressure even more. There are reasons we are asking the questions, as stated above, so the officers know what/who they are looking for as they approach the scene. Keep as calm as possible and keep answering my questions as long as you can without endangering yourself.
Originally Posted by Sig P239
Back to this call...If the 911 call receiver keeps saying "no, don't" it's probably that department's policy to say that and yelling at him about it won't help a thing. Of course the policy is wrong, but it is written by the lawyers and supported by the mayor/council members/etc that write his paycheck so that's what he says.
My department goes middle ground and our response is "do whatever you need to do to keep safe." That way we didn't tell you "yes" or "no" and we can't be liable in either case (see those lawyers again).
That being said, this guy could very well be 'new'. He sounds slow and leaves those long blank pauses where the caller wonders if he is still there.
Hopefully this helped. FWIW
The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD
June 12th, 2007 07:46 AM
So... now we need to rely on the opinion of a $10 an hour dispatcher to make our split second self defense decisions? I don't think so. She should have told the dispatcher" I'll be the one here with the .45 holding the suspect...tell your officers not to shoot me. And hurry up, my dinner's getting cold."Chuck.
June 12th, 2007 09:30 AM
As I said, some good, some bad. Having had the pleasure of being directed to a scene by dispatch, and giving them the credit of knowing the constraints under which they operate, I reiterate: call when things are taken care of, or the situation is not "overly" emergent. Anything else is a waste of time, or putting your arse in a jam.
Originally Posted by mcp1810
June 12th, 2007 09:34 AM
Well, I am not familiar with the laws in OK regarding self defense, but that woman was giving the prosecutor all the ammo he would need to lock her up for a long time if she or the neighbor had fired the weapon and killed or injured the BG. I would have done the following:
Return to the interior of my home and make sure my 83 year old mother was safe/uninjured. (Didn't hear anything about Mom)
Continued giving the 911 dispatcher any info required.
While doing the above lock the doors and acquire my defense weapon without telling the dispatcher what I am doing.
Wait for the police.
If BG returns to my house and enters forcibly, destroy him. That way I'm in my castle and defending an 83 year old woman as well as myself.
Of course, I'm saying all this while in the comfort of my home, under no stress or fear of impending danger. Hindsight's 20/20 you know.
I have a friend who was a 911 dispatcher. He has some horror stories from his side of the fence that would curl your hair. As an example, he said that many people really lose it in an emergency and can't always be depended on to even give accurate info regarding their location.
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