A 911 call, let's hear your thoughts. - Page 3

A 911 call, let's hear your thoughts.

This is a discussion on A 911 call, let's hear your thoughts. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Wow, some interesting discussion for sure. While I agree that the gal should have had the gun on her to begin with and I also ...

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Thread: A 911 call, let's hear your thoughts.

  1. #31
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    Wow, some interesting discussion for sure.

    While I agree that the gal should have had the gun on her to begin with and I also agree that she should have gotten the gun before she even dialed 911, that's not what happened here.

    I think she did well for being as shaken up as she was, however, I think, had she shot the BG, she would have gone down in flames.

    The threat was over, the BG was trying to flee, while I hope they got him and I'm glad that people got involved, I'm also glad he didn't get shot as I think they would have pinned her for murder.

    Had she shot him while he was attacking her mother, fine, but after he was stuck in the bushes, trying to flee, she could have seriously dug her own grave here.

    As far as the dispatcher was concerned, I think he was doing what he had to do. He knew the threat was over. She had already said that the guy no longer had a knife. She said that she was okay. She said that her mother as okay. She went back in her home and got a weapon.

    The dispatcher was giving her sound advice about not using it at that moment. Now, had the guy turned around and started attacking again, sure, she could shoot him, but then again, she could STILL be put at fault for going after the guy when the threat was considered "neutralized."

    It's common knowledge in the ccw world that when the threat is no longer being threatening, while you may indeed continue to cover yourself to be sure it doesn't escalate again, you are no longer in the right for shooting.

    Had she stayed in her home after she got the weapon and the BG deliberately tried to get back in her house and attack, then she'd be completely justified, but running AFTER a fleeing suspect with a gun to try to catch him and hold him, is a very bad idea, IMHO. If he gets the "cornered cat" syndrome and attacks to get away, she may not be as justified in shooting as she would have been. Then again, she may have, it could have gone either way.

    She was covering her butt, the dispatcher was covering his butt, and we're all happy, I'm sure, that things turned out well.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Bingo! ^^

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  3. #33
    Member Array vanilla_gorilla's Avatar
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    I haven't seen any other dispatchers here, so I'll jump in. Don't beat me.

    The woman calling is an idiot. I supervise other dispatchers, as well as handle my own calls, and I've handled calls similar to the way this one started out. If the threat is there, the dispatcher should not be telling her not to protect herself.

    Let's nitpick: The woman should wake up and realize that she needs to act on her own. Don't ask the dispatcher if you should get a gun. Get a gun and if you need to use it, use it. Have the dispatcher on the line, but use the gun! The dispatcher also needs to be beaten about the head and shoulders. My people are trained to keep the person on the line throughout any call like this. If they are asked by the caller, "Should I get a gun?" the response is going to be something like, "If you feel you need it, get it." I'm certainly not going to tell somebody in this situation NOT to protect themselves. Keep the caller on the line and keep getting info. They can hold the gun while talking. If you hear BANG BANG, then you tell your units that and try your best to find out who's hurt and where they are. All you have to do is notify the units coming that the caller is armed. When they are almost on scene (i.e. down the block) THEN you can tell the caller to put their weapon away. Don't have them disarm themselves without somebody on scene!

    As has been said already, the cops are there to document. They will protect if they can, but most often, they can't. Personal protection falls upon YOU.


    One last thought: a call like this, the cops are already coming as fast as they can. You being an a butt isn't going to get them there any faster. It's just going to delay communication of the actual events to the people coming to try to help you. Don't be an *******. I've had people literally cursing me out while I'm trying to give CPR instructions to them to help their dying family members. Some people consider it more important to tell me what to do than to help their wife or husband or father or mother.
    Last edited by Bumper; June 13th, 2007 at 05:03 PM. Reason: Language
    I'll take a .45 and a large side of JHPs, please.

  4. #34
    Member Array Alien Nation's Avatar
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    Good post Gorrila!
    “You come at me with a sword and with a spear. But I come at you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you and take your head from you". 1 Samuel 17, 45-46
    Brian

  5. #35
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    As another dispatcher, I'm totally with vanilla_gorilla. That dispatcher was completely out of line telling the caller to not only not get the gun but also not to use it. That creates a huge liability for the department the dispatcher works for and also brings the responsibility of the caller's life into the dispatcher's hands (figuratively and legally). If you have a gun and ask me if you can shoot them, the exact thing that I would say (and what other dispatchers should say) is you do what you have to do. That's it.

    limatunes was on the right track about the threat being over, but as a dispatcher who directly relies on what the caller is telling them, it's not over. The threat is still there, she still feels in fear for her life and for the escape of the BG. That's enough for me, she can have the gun. Until I have people in uniform with guns of their own taking care of the situation, she's well within her right in that kind of situation to arm herself and I have no right to tell her differently.

    Cheers.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    When seconds count, the police respond within minutes..
    Yup, in this case, it was right about EIGHT minutes.

    Let's think about how many stab wounds could be inflicted on two women in 8 minutes, if they hadn't been able to knock the knife away from him. (I listened to the entire call.)

    I'm gonna depart a bit from the consensus and say that I didn't catch overt anti-gunism from the call taker; it could be argued that his advice to not get the gun in the first place was dumb and off-the-mark because who knew if the attacker was going to come back and confront them again? Best to get the gun, and wait in safety somewhere that you can take cover and defend from.

    But once she had the gun, he kept telling her not to use it; why? Probably because if she went trotting a few blocks through the neighborhood just because she didn't want the suspect to get away (wholly understandable; I sympathize), if she does catch up with him, and then does shoot him, can't she be charged? She had retreated away from him and was not directly threatened; now she has gone out to confront the threat again.

    Now, on the other hand, is it the right of a civilian to go out to confront someone who has attacked her (and her 83-year-old mom!) to ORDER him to remain where he is, i.e. to make a citizen's arrest on a felony suspect? I would like to think YES, but I don't know. Perhaps the dispatcher was recommending she not go after him with the gun because frankly, it seemed that this lady was pissed off to the point where she might have just executed the guy! ("Not that there's anything wrong with that!")

    Lots to discuss about this one...

  7. #37
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanilla_gorilla View Post
    The woman calling is an idiot. I supervise other dispatchers, as well as handle my own calls, and I've handled calls similar to the way this one started out. If the threat is there, the dispatcher should not be telling her not to protect herself.
    Yup. As I said, IIRC, we had 3 really bad 911 calls, in similar vein, with lots of wonderful advice being given, that resulted in some terminations and/or "re-education".

    Perhaps my EMS perspective was a bit twisted, but I always viewed interaction with 99.9% of the calls (the Stoopids) as training to respond to that other 0.01% that was some poor soul literally at the wrong place/wrong time.

  9. #39
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    I'm gonna depart a bit from the consensus and say that I didn't catch overt anti-gunism from the call taker...

    But once she had the gun, he kept telling her not to use it; why? Probably because if she went trotting a few blocks through the neighborhood...

    Now, on the other hand, is it the right of a civilian to go out to confront someone who has attacked her (and her 83-year-old mom!) to ORDER him to remain where he is, i.e. to make a citizen's arrest on a felony suspect? I would like to think YES, but I don't know. Perhaps the dispatcher was recommending she not go after him with the gun because frankly, it seemed that this lady was pissed off to the point where she might have just executed the guy!...
    I wouldn't go as far as saying the dispatcher was anti-gun, but I will say that it was pretty clear that the dispatcher thought that a gun was not needed (which was wrong of them). We can't tell someone not to exercise a right to protect themselves unless it's in the interest of officer safety. Until and unless an officer is present in that situation, officer safety doesn't come into play yet. And depending on your jurisdiction, yes, you have the full right and authority to make a citizen's arrest. Also depending on your jurisdiction, it could be another felony to evade arrest by a citizen as well if they are justified in doing it.

    The #1 rule in dispatching is never assume anything. You're not there, you can't see what's going on, you can't hear everything that's going on, and you're relying on a single person to tell you what's going on as your single source of information -- usually in the heat of the moment when the person is not the most coherent. You can't lawfully order someone to not get a gun or to not use it unless there is an officer safety issue or if they intend to do a crime with it (and that intention must be clear). The only thing that we can assume is that the S has HTF at the minimum.

    Yes, the caller didn't have a gun to begin with. The BG was not gone, they were outside with the neighbor. The threat is still there, especially for the neighbor. She was well within her right to have a gun, to go get the gun and to use it to hold the BG there. No cops were there, they weren't going to magically appear and save the day. Law enforcement is 99% reactive, not proactive. They mostly do not prevent crimes, they respond after the fact.

    If I was the dispatcher that received the call I would get her location, the gist of what happened and go from there. If she said she had a gun I would give her an update on where my LEOs are and that they would be there as quickly as they can. I would also ask her what she is doing with the gun. If she said holding the BG for the LEOs I would ask her if was making a citizen's arrest. If she said yes, I would advise her to tell the BG that (depending on your jurisdiction, the citizen may be required to tell them that to qualify as a "citizen's arrest"). When the LEOs arrived on scene, I'd have her secure the weapon and tell the LEOs where they were at so that they can take the BG into custody.

    Cheers.
    "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall." Adolf Hitler

  10. #40
    Member Array wedoada's Avatar
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    26 year dispatcher here. (back before liability was king ! LOL)

    I agree with many points made here. In our center at least, we get certified as "In-Progress" Dispatchers for the various services (PD/FD/EMS). Once we are certified we read from a script, regardless of how we may feel personally, based on the replies to our questions. The scripts are OBVIOUSLY written by lawyers (no offense) who are trying to protect the agencies from liability and could care less about the dispatcher that needs to sleep at night (or during the day in my case) after the call is done.

    Without having our book right in front of me I recall that it stresses that the callers should not place themselves in jeopardy and as others have mentioned, it would likely leave it vauge re; getting a weapon or not.

    We would hear from the boss if we said, "yes go get your gun" and we would also hear about it if we said, "NO don't protect yourself".

    I use, "Do what you feel you need to do to keep yourself safe from harm".

    Dispatchers are not lawyers or police officers. We are not here to tell people what we feel or think or offer advise...we are specifically not allowed to do that in most cases.

    We must dance a delicate dance with words, over the phone, without having all of the facts at the scene and try in many cased to help the caller calm down and work through the problem and reach, what to most of us, would be common sense without actually telling them what to do....all on a taped line that will be on the news, in court and posted on internet sites for people to critique.

    RandyW

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanilla_gorilla View Post
    The woman should wake up and realize that she needs to act on her own.
    Most people I have met, including my own wife, have no clue what to do or how to behave in an emergency unless someone tells them how.

    And don't expect that to improve in today's liability-crazed, government-knows-better, FEMA-save-me, indoctrinated sheep society.

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array Chooie's Avatar
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    There's plenty of time to call 911 when the SOB is bleeding out on the lawn or carpet. She should have had the gun already, and stopped the chase before it started.
    Last edited by Chooie; June 26th, 2007 at 10:21 AM.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    If this woman had retrieved the gun sooner the BG would have still been there when the police arrived. She did the right thing by getting the gun to her neighbor instead of leaveing the neighbor to deal with the BG while unarmed. this gal had guts.

  14. #44
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    I am with LIma and PJ. The threat was gone. When she chased him down the street and then returned to the house for her gun and returned to where he was SHE BECAME THE THREAT. If she had not pursued she was under no threat, there by threat ended no need for a gun.

    She was wrong.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith&Wessonfan View Post
    Most people I have met, including my own wife, have no clue what to do or how to behave in an emergency unless someone tells them how.

    The politically correct term for these people is "bystanders".
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

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