June 11th, 2007 01:00 PM
A 911 call, let's hear your thoughts.
I've been having an interesting time of surfing the net for gun related stuff.. In my search I came across a story of an attack in Oklahoma. The following was the description of the event taken from the site, proceeding the 911 recording.
The recording can be found here. And when I listened to it I pulled out the section I thought we could discuss...
On February 14 2005, Theresa G. (last name withheld) was inside her house in Oklahoma City when she heard commotion coming from the garage. When she went to investigate, she was startled to see her 83-year-old mother, Barbara, struggling with a strange man. Theresa quickly ran to her mother's aid, and managed to disarm the mugger of the knife he was carrying. When he tried to get back into a car with his accomplice, Theresa held on to him, determined to not let him get away. The driver began to pull away, and both Theresa and the mugger were dragged a bit of a distance before the car finally broke free. By that time, a neighbor had come out to help, and Theresa used her cell phone to call 911. Here is a recording of the actual call (address and phone number have been edited out):
By this time the attacker had managed to get away but his flight was hindered by a creek and some heavy brush. He was basically boxed in and the assisting neighbor and Theresa were determined to keep him in sight and cornered until the police arrived.
Theresa asks if she should go get her .45 and the dispatcher replies. The
following is the conversation, you can listen to it yourself if you would like but you can also read it...
Dispatcher: Do not go get a weapon, okay?.. Okay?
Theresa: Well, you all need to hurry. He’s coming.
Dispatcher: We’re on the way right now, okay?.. Okay, do not go get a gun.
Theresa: Well, you all aren’t very quick. And he beat me up.
Dispatcher: Okay, do you know who he is?
Theresa: Well, no, I’ve never seen him before. He pulled up (unintelligible) and he attacked my mother as she pulled into the driveway. And she destroyed our house because she was still driving. And he took.. and he attacked her before she could turn off the car and it ran through our house.
Dispatcher: Okay, you’re at 59th (unintelligible)…
Dispatcher: Are you at the intersection?
Theresa: No, it’s beyond the intersection.
Dispatcher: North? South? East?
Theresa: It’s at (unintelligible) road… He has to go along the ditch on the south side there.
Dispatcher: Okay, where is he now? Do you still see him?
Theresa: Uhhh, I came and got my weapon, I’m sorry.
Dispatcher: Okay, Ma’am, don’t use your weapon. Okay?... Ma’am?... Ma’am?
Theresa: I’m here. I’m here.
Dispatcher: What are you doing?
Theresa: I’m going back to the scene.
Dispatcher: To do what?
Theresa: To help… I’m going to make sure this ******* doesn’t get away.
Dispatcher: Do not use your weapon, Ma’am… Ma’am?
Theresa: Oh, I’m here.
Theresa: Oh I hear ya.
Dispatcher: I want you to go back to your house, okay, and wait for the officer there at your house… Teresa?
Theresa: I’m not going to do that… I’m not going to leave my neighbor to deal with this *******.
Theresa eventually hands the gun over to her neighbor who keeps the BG (who has gotten hung up on some bushes) at gun point for a short while, eventually the BG gets free and runs back into the neighborhood before the police arrive.
When the police arrive on the scene the recording ends we we don't get to hear whether the bad guy was caught or not.
Of course, the gun was never fired.
Do you agree with how Theresa handled the situation or should she have done what the dispatcher wanted her to, that is stay in her home until the police arrived?
June 11th, 2007 01:06 PM
Well she shouldn't have went after him with out her gun!
Then with gun in hand keep the BG in sight while relying the info to the police.
Of course if she had her gun on her she could have shot the BG while he was attacking her mother.
“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein,
June 11th, 2007 01:07 PM
I think she should have grabbed the gun prior to calling 911 myself.
If the BG made it back I'd feel a lot better with a gun in my hand.
Other than that I think she did OK.
I agree with PGrass101, a gun on your person is better than a gun in a drawer.
June 11th, 2007 01:12 PM
Just my take. She should have gotten the plate number of the car the mugger showed up in.
In most cases I think if she'd shot while the "attacker" was trying to get away she'd have been at fault, especially if he was now unarmed.
EOD - Initial success or total failure
June 11th, 2007 01:18 PM
Was the dispatcher dispensing legal advice, tactical commands or just offering her two pennies?
If I got that attitude from 911 I would ask them, on tape, which of the above it was.That is assuming my adrenaline allowed me to compose that thought, I would likely be just a little engrossed in the moment.
June 11th, 2007 01:22 PM
He seemed to be more worried about the BG's safety than the victims.
It didn't sound like he wanted her to go home until she said she had the gun in hand. then he was more concerned with the gun and who had it than the BG
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
June 11th, 2007 01:31 PM
I agree. Who the heck does this guy think he is telling her not to defend herself? It sounds like she displayed more sense than the dispatcher.
He seemed to be more worried about the BG's safety than the victims
June 11th, 2007 01:38 PM
You need to remember most dispatchers aren't police, they are civilians. Their only real concearn is to gather info for responding officers, mainly by keeping the person calling on the phone, if your in a gun fight, they might not be able to get a lot of required data.
Originally Posted by Andy W.
But she still did the right thing in grabbing her gun and keeping the dispatcher on the line until the authorites arrived.
June 11th, 2007 01:49 PM
I think she needs to learn to cary on her person, although I admit that I'm not always armed while at home. The dispatcher was way off base, but it may be his municipalities protocol or the way he was trained.
Step one: protect yourself
Step TWO: call 911.
These 2 are lucky as I have to think if the BG wanted to hurt them he would've use his knife. I'm guessing he just wanted to scare them into giving up their purse. Of course, that matters little. Bring a knife near my wife or mom or whoever, and you've just brought a knife to a gunfight.
June 11th, 2007 01:49 PM
My Take.......only worth 1 cent
Sounds like, given the situation, she did what she could manage despite the stress of the moment.
I would've retrieved my gun (if not carrying) and secured my house and family, then grabbed the phone while attempting to assist the neighbor.
I understand the dispatcher not wanting the homeowner to have a gun with police enroute...safety of the responding units and the surrounding homes....but I'd have none of that. Attacking her (or my) mother, in her own home, with a knife..oh nay nay. Not on my Watch!
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
June 11th, 2007 01:58 PM
What is so wrong with helping to uphold the law. This is our country, our community, and our laws. We hire the police; they are here to enforce our laws! If they can't do the job, somebody has to do it. That is the kind of thinking that built this country, and if we get away from that we are screwed as a nation. The mindset that says 'let the professionals handle it' is the kind of thinking that turns people into helpless sheep.
Not ranting at anyone on this forum, just blowing off steam. I'm tired of hearing whiners who are afraid to anything for themselves of anybody else that might possibly involve any element of risk. Pretty soon we are all going to be riding the bus to work because driving a car is too dangerous. And heaven forbid we consider trying to stop a criminal who just tried to knife our mom.
June 11th, 2007 03:06 PM
911 to CYA - don't count on anything else!
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
June 11th, 2007 03:26 PM
A couple of things I would like to say on this. First, I would not be surprised if the call taker was a trainee. His response time during the conversation indicates to me he is not multi tasking well and may be getting coached by his trainer. As far as what he is saying to her it is pretty much text book responses. Part of the training of 9-1-1 operators ( In the departments I worked with) includes civil liability. If the departments standard operating procedure states that when a caller asks if they should arm themselves you are to tell them "No" and you fail to do so, you can be personally held liable. If you follow "the book" and get sued the department or that jurisdiction is liable, not you individually, unless what is in "the book" is totally outrageous to a "reasonable man".
Lawyers aside, the 9-1-1 caller is the eyes and ears on the scene until officers arrive. As a call taker my main concerns were the safety of the caller and the safety of my responding officers. If I could keep my caller on the line and at a safe vantage point that enhanced the safety of my officers. If my caller drops the phone and gets involved in something, my officers are now going in with blinders on. Also, in this situation my officers would now possibly be facing the bad guy armed with his knife and the callers .45.
That being said, would I have listened to the dispatcher?
June 11th, 2007 05:43 PM
Quite so. Its a real toss-up, regarding what you get on all three sides of the equation: caller, dispatch, responding units.
Originally Posted by mcp1810
If you know what needs doing, get it done. If you must call 911, put your phone on speaker, and take care of business, and respond to them when you've secured your situation.
IIRC, this was something like the 3rd "really bad" 911 situation to be publicized in OK ("Oh, do I have poopie on my shoes?!?"), and this particular dispatcher was either terminated, or given "remedial training".
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