June 12th, 2007 01:44 PM
Was going through this scenerio in my own head and still not sure exactly how I would handle it.
I have retail store that I work about 95% of the time. We are in a nice area of town, but riff-raft still find their way in sometimes. If I had someone come in and hold me up (at gun point) I am trying to decide if I would try to draw and shot the attacker or if I would simply hand them the money and merchandise and call the police as soon as the scenario is over.
I know if there were two of us working at the time I would draw as I would be coming out from the back room, after seeing what was going on in the cameras we have setup.
Your thoughts on this. Or if there are different anwsers depending on circumstances?
other facts to think about my check out counter is located in the center of my store. The entrance is at a 2:30 about 28' away.
June 12th, 2007 01:50 PM
Different circumstances dictate different responses.
June 12th, 2007 01:54 PM
Man, there are so many variables here. Generally, it would be cheaper to hand over the money than pay for legal costs. Also keep in mind that very few special people can outdraw a gun thats already drawn.
Take a good force on force class, keep vigilant, and play it as it goes down. No single response can cover the many possible factors.
June 12th, 2007 01:57 PM
I agree that every scenario is different, but when faced with an armed BG (or one coming in the door)...are we to wait to see if he shoots after he gets the money?
I would think that when a weapon is seen, the time for taking is over...
Stay armed...stay safe!
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June 12th, 2007 02:54 PM
This is sort of my concern. I know that each scenario is different and that there are many variables involved here that could change this, but I am thinking if no one else is in the store and they come in what am I going to do. I know part of me wants to end the situation as quickly and safely as possible and let the BG take the material things as they are no as important, but I do not want to be carrying and be found dead because I did not react.
Originally Posted by retsupt99
Force on force training I know is in my near future.
June 13th, 2007 12:18 AM
Darn that Henry Ford. Now BGs can go anywhere.
The human eye cannot distinguish the color of an object that is completely hidden from sight, nor of an object which is hidden by a large muzzle flash! The short span of time between hidden by design and hidden by muzzle flash is too brief for color identification to be reliable.
This is the hardest call of all:
If the chances of giving them the money and having no one get hurt are high, then just give them the money - the business has insurance.
If there is a chance they will harm someone to make a point, to feel like big men, or just because the drugs make it seem so cool - beat them to death, oops, I really meant hit them with a chair, cash register, or whatever until the threat is neutralized , immediately after running your pistol dry!
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
June 13th, 2007 12:59 PM
+ 1 to this. Seems to be the way I feel overall about this sort of thing.
Originally Posted by obxned
June 14th, 2007 03:56 PM
Just curious how do you carry at your retail job? Pretty sure it's against the rules. I work retail part time and I use one of those UC Cover Tshirt holsters and it works rather well it's deep concealment.
Our shirts are button up. What I did with my shirts was to remove the button(on my shirt the buttons fall just right so I only had to remove one). The side of the shirt with the button eye is usually folded and hemmed. I undid this and then stitched the button eye closed and then sewed the button on to the shirt button eye that I stitched so when you look at it it actually looks like the shirt is buttoned as normal. I then took one of those cheap thin refrigerator business card magnets(not the super strong ones) and cut a small piece out and then put it under the fold behind the stitched button and stitched all around it to keep it in place like making a pocket around it.
On the other side of the shirt were the button is normally. I undid the stitching and slid a thin metal piece in and then stitched a pocket around it to keep it in place. You would have to look close and I mean close to even notice the stitches.
Doing this made access to my gun super quick. When I go to draw I spread my fingers and slide right in to my guns grip. The magnet is just strong enough to keep the shirt close but weak enough break away when my hand slides in.
I can actually get to my gun(G19) quicker and into the game than I can if I tucked using my CTAC. I can also grab it easier on the move and do everything one handed. I see why Fed pimps them to people so much, I think he uses snap buttons I just thought of the magnet idea while getting something to drink from the fridge.
The store I work at doesn't have cameras can you believe that, we've never had any violence since I've been there other than a couple of boyfriends walking in or calling threating their girlfriends.
Thing that worries me more is that one of them may walk in and decided that he can't live without her and decides he's going kill her and everyone in the place. Our store is a nice size but after a certain time it's dead as a door knob and I'm sure people know this.
Another thing I like about the UCC holster is when I get off work at night I'm normally hungry. If I go thru a drive thru I just unbutton all my buttons before pulling in, easy cross draw.
My full time job, no worries there are a few permit holders there even with the no weapon policy.
I know I went OT there for a minute
June 14th, 2007 06:57 PM
all I can say is trying to draw against someone who already has their gun in their hand is tricky at best and at worst, down right suicidal.
However, you have to play each situation as it unfolds before you. I am also certainly not saying you shouldn't act just because the other guy has his gun out. They almost always invariably provide you with several opportunites to act during a hold up event even with their gun in hand. But you have to recognize the opportunities when they present themself and know that if you hesitate, it could be your last act on earth. Hesitation comes from lack of training and practice.
Obviously, there may be situations in which the BG is so unsteady and skittish as he does his thing that you may be able to draw and be totally unseen by the bad guy.
My best answer, is the more tactics you have in your tool box and the more scenario's you think of and then practice a "game plan/response" to, the better off that you are.
I am amazed at how many people I find who devote very little, if any time devoted to learning tactics and trying to work through as many possible scenarios as possible.
I believe survival in a gunfight is about;
70% Mental (mindset, guts, development of tactics, knowing when to act and when not to act, knowing use of cover, etc.)
20% Skill (marksmanship, drawing and presenting your gun from concealment) and
10% Equipment (gun that is 100 % reliable, spare ammo, flashlight, back-up weapon).
If you are not devoting a significant portion of your time and efforts in developing tactics, mind set, learning your capabilities and how you will handle certain scenarios, and variations of scenarios, you are selling yourself short and may end up on the losing end of the fight even though you have a $250 custom holster and a $2,000 custom gun.
This may sound harsh, but the gun and the holster rig you have are totally useless if you are too lazy to learn how to deploy them tactically and in what situations you know you can perform in and know what your limitations are.
I can't overstate the value of attending some sort of recognized training at one of the recognized schools out there! If you have more than one $1,000 custom gun and haven't spent the $800 - $1500 to attend a good shooting school, well good luck then.
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by Bark'n; June 14th, 2007 at 07:10 PM.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
June 15th, 2007 12:40 AM
I totally agree..I usally sit around and just think of some bull that could happen. Try to what if it to death..
I agree if someone has their gun out and you try to out draw them you're behind the curve. Ducking for cover and drawing are odds I'm willing to risk if I feel the situation warranties it.
I do a lot of point shooting and shooting from retention...I want everything to go on autopilot once my brain gives me the game time command.
June 15th, 2007 01:03 AM
You can say that again. Opinions will abound when scenarios are presented on internet forums. There are so many possible variables that there can be no cookie-cutter answers. But, I will contradict myself now by saying that if the gun is already pointed at me, I would hand the money over. But...I would draw and fire given the chance.
Originally Posted by Rock and Glock
June 18th, 2007 04:31 PM
Carry is certainly legal and allowed at my place of work, as I own my retail store.
+1 to Barkn as the reason for this question was to start thinking and working out the mental aspect of the situation.
I know that several courses are in my near future.
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