Are there grounds for legal action?

Are there grounds for legal action?

This is a discussion on Are there grounds for legal action? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Had a thought related to another string. I thought I'd pass it by you to get your opinions on this. You’re out on the town ...

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Thread: Are there grounds for legal action?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Are there grounds for legal action?

    Had a thought related to another string. I thought I'd pass it by you to get your opinions on this.

    You’re out on the town carrying your pistol when you of your loved one is attacked by a BG with a knife. You draw your weapon pull the trigger and nothing happens. You or your loved one or both end up badly injured. The subsequent investigation shows that your recently purchased ammunition was defective. Several rounds had bad primers. This was “high end” ammunition designed primarily for self defense.

    Do you, your loved one or the surviving family have a case for recovery for damages, pain, suffering from the manufacturer, distributor, and retailer of this ammunition?

    I’ve not heard of a law suit like this although their must be some precedent somewhere.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.


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    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    If there is found to be a consistent level of the same problem with the lot of ammo you bought I would say there might be grounds for legal action.

    This is one of many reasons that when I buy ammo to carry in my self defense guns, I buy enough to load all the magazines I will carry and have several rounds left over. This way, there is ammo left to test in case of any type of legal action in a post shooting situation.

    If you have to shoot in defense of your life, the Bad Guys lawyer (or his surviving family members if you killed him) may sue you for wrongful death or some other BS charge. (if you live in a state with no civil liability protection law) It would be helpful to have rounds of the ammo you used in the shooting, same box, same brand, same lot everything, to show that you didn't alter the ammo or otherwise change anything with it before the shooting.

    Always cover your butt.....it's the only one you have.
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    Well I know in VA you can sue anyone for anything. Doesn't mean you'll win, but you can sue them.

    Would I sue the manufacturer? Probably not, but that's me. I'd say my bad for not going to the BUG immediately.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    ... ammunition was defective. Several rounds had bad primers. This was “high end” ammunition ... Do you, your loved one or the surviving family have a case for recovery for damages, pain, suffering from the manufacturer, distributor, and retailer of this ammunition?
    Scat happens. Perfection in any mechanical, chemical or other man-made device simply isn't possible, merely due to anticipated variation in the product. Can't be eliminated.

    A "case"? Sure, one can be brought, but is it a case ... as in, would you "have one", would it win? Who's to say? Welcome to America, the land of the lawsuit. IMO, everything depends on active diligence on the part of the company, the person purchasing the ammo.

    This is one of the reasons why I won't bless a given make/model of ammo for use in my carry weapon until I've run 1-2K rds through one or more guns. Purchased at different times from different suppliers, it's highly likely that I end up acquiring multiple lot numbers of ammo. Once 1K rds has been shot, any common conditions should be seen and understood. By 2K rds, I like to think that all conditions related to the ammo are clear. By proxy, if a given ammo can withstand such varied shooting across 2K rounds, the quality, testing and competence of the mfr and their product has been shown as sufficiently good. If by that point the ammo has behaved well and works perfectly in my chosen carry gun, it's a winner. Not until then. All of that is my responsibility as a carrier. Any less would be negligence, I'd think.

    Now, on the ammo mfr's part, a similiar diligence is required. Equipment must be fresh and in good repair. It must be well-maintained and calibrated. The staff must be well-trained and competent. There must be a quality-control and testing program, with a regimen designed to weed out faulty design or construction elements, with a proven history of competent correction when such issues are found. Beyond that, it's hard to demand perfection in a chemical/mechanical device in the ludicrous expectation that zero failures are acceptable. Scat happens. It should be expected to occur occasionally. To expect anything else is simply not rational.

    Only if negligence or incompetence can be proven should a lawsuit hold water, in my opinion. Though, simply rationality and common sense doesn't seem to be a requirement these days.
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  5. #5
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    Do you, your loved one or the surviving family have a case for recovery for damages, pain, suffering from the manufacturer, distributor, and retailer of this ammunition?
    I doubt it. The ammo maker would make the standard claim that reasonable care was exercised in the manufacture of the ammunition and that no other warranty, expressed or implied, was made. The distributor and retailer could claim immunity for the same reason.

    It would be the plaintiff's burden to prove otherwise.


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    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    I'm sure if you fish around on ammo companies websites you'll find a disclaimer or two, something along the lines of 'liability limited to the cost of the ammo, not guaranteed to work in an emergency situation'.

    The companies already have lawyers, and they have already thought about this.

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    This is a reason to do two things:

    Practice when you can with your CARRY AMMO.

    Do your homework & make sure you are using reliable ammo. Check web sites for info on them!

    If you have issues with some ammo....post it so others will know too!
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    You’re out on the town carrying your pistol when you of your loved one is attacked by a BG with a knife. You draw your weapon pull the trigger and nothing happens. You or your loved one or both end up badly injured. The subsequent investigation shows that your recently purchased ammunition was defective. Several rounds had bad primers. This was “high end” ammunition designed primarily for self defense.
    And here I am gonna add my two yen.

    Non-Legal.
    What else did you do? The gun went click and you gave up? You racked the slide and tried another round? Did you dump the mag and retrieved another? Or in case of a wheelie, Did you continue to press the trigger? If failure occured, did you dump your bad ammo and got another speedloader/strip?

    Legal: How old is the ammo? How was it stored? Did you buy directly from the manufacturer or a shop or private individual? How was it stored with those entities?

    I am not trying to be argumentative, just showing how difficult it would be to win a lawsuit specially when defensive ammo is so relaible. Hell, even Wally World Special is reliable! Also, be prepared for failure!
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  9. #9
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    Here's another way to react to a failure to fire:

    http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/Reaction.mpg
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    Here's another way to react to a failure to fire:

    http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR/Reaction.mpg
    2 CM...1 poke in the face...grab the NY reload...

    It works!

    ret
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  11. #11
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    Maverick, also remember, we are not lawyes and we stayed in Motel 6 last nite
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  12. #12
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Maverick, also remember, we are not lawyes and we stayed in Motel 6 last nite
    Not a lawyer but I never stay in less than a Marriott, unless of course partying out of town with the rollergirls, then it's any fleapit that we decide needs livening up*.

    *livening up - ambulances at 3am to fix wounds in team members head caused by bottle launched by other team member. We are now banned, which is why I don't go to Marriotts with the girls.

  13. #13
    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    thats why we practice failure drills. The manuf. probably does not make the primers but get them from a third party.
    I have had remington golden sabers ftf due to primers before, but they did fire after being restruck.
    The only reliable ammo is the rounds you just shot.

  14. #14
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tap_Rack_Bang

    one thing i practice is holding the slide with my strong hand and using my hip (or whatever is convieniant)(i know horrible spelling) to actuate the slide.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    If a lack of reasonable care could be shown you may have a case. Perhaps if you had a mag or two left, ideally the original case, in which other rounds with the same problem could be identified you might get somewhere.

    The botoom line is in manufacturing you CANNOT eliminate ALL failures. No matter how many Six Sigma BS Blackbelts (any who do not know what I am talking about consider yourself lucky) tell you otherwise STUFF HAPPENS.

    Now if you could prove that there was a consistent problem with the lot and especially if you could prove company knowledge of the problem (without a good faith attempt to rectify it) then you may have something. Having the one out of a million bad rounds at the worst time though does not mean you won the lottery.

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