"Deter, Detect, Delay, and Defeat."

"Deter, Detect, Delay, and Defeat."

This is a discussion on "Deter, Detect, Delay, and Defeat." within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; from: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...817.shtml?s=ic Lt. Col. Grossman: Virginia Tech Tragedy Report Misses Point A leading expert on mass violence has taken issue with a presidential task force ...

Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: "Deter, Detect, Delay, and Defeat."

  1. #1
    VIP Member
    Array goawayfarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Fork Union, Virginia
    Posts
    2,699

    "Deter, Detect, Delay, and Defeat."

    from: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...817.shtml?s=ic

    Lt. Col. Grossman: Virginia Tech Tragedy Report Misses Point

    A leading expert on mass violence has taken issue with a presidential task force report delving into the Virginia Tech shootings and school violence in general, saying it fails to address the key issues.

    The report, released to the public on June 13, was issued by a panel that included Michael Leavitt, Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and was officially titled "Report to the President on Issues Raised by the Virginia Tech Tragedy.”

    But Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, a former West Point instructor, declared: "I think they missed the boat.”

    Grossman is the author of several book including the Pulitzer Prize-nominated "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society,” which is required reading for FBI recruits.

    After reading the government report, Grossman told NewsMax exclusively:

    "All they are reporting on is largely mental illness, sharing information about threatening individuals, keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, getting help to mentally ill people, and improving emergency preparedness and violence prevention.

    "A full spectrum plan looks at: Deter, Detect, Delay, and Defeat.

    Grossman elaborated on each of the four points:

    "Deter: The killer can be deterred. That is why there are seldom any successful workplace massacres in police stations. We need to start putting pressure on schools that refuse to arm their police.

    "Most colleges and universities are small cities. Any city leadership that refused to arm their cops, and then had people murdered, would be put out business at the next election. We entrust our kids in the care of organizations that neglect the most fundamental aspect of public safety: armed cops.

    "And of course we have the whole issue of not permitting concealed weapons permits to apply on campus. These are laws that disarm law-abiding citizens, and attract killers who want a body count.”

    On "Detect,” Lt. Col Grossman told NewsMax:

    "The whole focus of the president's task force report was on detecting mentally ill killers before they strike. But most of the high school killers were not mentally ill. The kids that gave us Jonesboro in the middle school and Columbine in the high school are now showing up in the colleges. And the high schools are getting very good at identifying these wannabe killers. All the methodologies learned in blood in the high schools now must be applied in the college.

    "An alternative is to identify (‘detect’) and list in a national database all the colleges that refuse to arm their police, and to recommend that parents not send their kids to these colleges. Instead of trying to detect the killer, just detect the negligent schools.”

    As for "Delay,” Grossman says: "This generally means lockdown drills and securable facilities. Lockdown is to violence what fire drills are to fire. Every classroom must be quickly securable. How many teachers and professors and students have to die blocking doors with their bodies before we learn this lesson? "Also, every classroom must have two exits, even if one is out the window. And colleges have to do lockdown drills, just like high schools. The faculty must be briefed on where and how to secure their students.

    "Defeat: This brings us back to our cops again. First, armed cops need to be onsite. The Virginia Tech shooter killed 32 in nine minutes. How many more would he have killed if armed police were not onsite?

    "Secondly, the police need rifles so they can defeat body armor (the high school killer of seven at Red Lake, Minn., was wearing body armor) and so they can effectively engage snipers. The campus police need SWAT teams trained in explosive breaching so they can quickly and effectively respond to barricaded gunmen scenarios.

    "Remember, if a gunman is trapped in a bank or convenience store with hostages, he isn’t there to kill people. But if a gunman takes hostages in a school, he can be there for only one purpose: to kill kids and to carve his name in history in your children's blood.”

    "In these scenarios, seconds equal lives, and just as colleges have fire hoses and fire extinguishers on site, they need to have the tools to respond to violence on site.

    "If they are not going to permit their citizens (students and faculty) to carry lifesaving tools (firearms), then they must provide those lifesaving tools, in the hands of trained professionals. This is a moral, legal obligation.”
    I think even Grossman missed the point as well. Armed response by someone ALREADY ON THE SCENE, would have made the biggest difference.

    He does however, make a simple & easy method to apply to our own defense......I think we can all apply his "Deter, Detect, Delay, and Defeat." methodology to our own defense.

    A couple of examples:
    Deter- Don't look like a victim. Make yourself as un-appealing to the BG as possible.

    Detect- Be aware of your surroundings, find the BG before he finds you.

    Delay- Make an attack for a BG as hard as possible. Make it difficult for BG to get close enough to cause harm. Keep as much distance from BG as possible.

    Defeat- WIN! You are fighting for your life or that of an innocent. There are NO rules, WIN at all costs!

    (By no means a complete list, but it may help the mind set of overcoming the evil in the world.)
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array blueyedevil's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    615
    I do like the "4 D's" you could include alot in that simple credo. I agree also with the idea that it is the moral and legal obligation of the disarming agency to protect you if they require you to be disarmed at thier property. I think we would see a heck of alot less "no guns" signs and the like if insurance agencies started penalizing people for prohibiting guns due to liability issues. We need some of the families of VT to come out and sue the school on that basis and set a precident for future cases.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Central FL
    Posts
    2,073
    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    Defeat- WIN! You are fighting for your life or that of an innocent. There are NO rules, WIN at all costs!

    (By no means a complete list, but it may help the mind set of overcoming the evil in the world.)
    The first person to really open my eyes to the realities of self defense many years ago hammered on that last point from real, where the rubber meets the road, experience. When you've done everything you can to avoid trouble but the attack still comes there is only one rule, win! The other option isn't so hot.

    He stressed when meeting someone who wants to kill you or yours there is nothing you can do to him that will be wrong and no weapon to be overlooked. WHile this might seem violent and uncivilised to many sheltered souls the reality is never very pretty but something it's better to be prepared for.
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    27,887
    Grossman's a bright guy. The 4D approach. Much of the thinking makes complete sense.

    I wonder if that 4-star panel of bureaucrats actually had any expert input, prior to making up their minds on the report's contents. Haven't read it, myself, an am unaware of this panel's composition.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  5. #5
    Senior Moderator
    Array pgrass101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    13,575
    Quote Originally Posted by ELCruisr View Post
    He stressed when meeting someone who wants to kill you or yours there is nothing you can do to him that will be wrong and no weapon to be overlooked. WHile this might seem violent and uncivilised to many sheltered souls the reality is never very pretty but something it's better to be prepared for.
    I learned that violence should be released in an explosion, a virtual whirlwind of destruction. Most people do not understand violence becuase they have never seen it except on TV.
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  6. #6
    Member Array armoredman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    484
    I like the 4 Ds - gonna use that at work, too!
    If total government control equals safety, why are prisons so dangerous?

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Prescott, AZ
    Posts
    1,692
    ...and from the man who brought us the sheepdog analogy if I'm not mistaken. Damned good read.
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  8. #8
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,916
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    ...I wonder if that 4-star panel of bureaucrats actually had any expert input, prior to making up their minds on the report's contents...
    Of course they had an EXPERT... They had Alberto Gonzalas, Attorney General of these United States! And personal buddy of "W"


    Sorry, about the sarcasm... I couldn't let it go... I tried!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #9
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    431
    [QUOTE=goawayfarm;406061]from: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...817.shtml?s=ic

    I think even Grossman missed the point as well. Armed response by someone ALREADY ON THE SCENE, would have made the biggest difference.

    Well here is what I know for fact..........

    (2) two S.W.A.T Teams were at the school at the time of the shootings at the parade fields getting ready to do a training exercise. And from the time the first shot's were fired in Noris Hall they made entry and got to the Shooter (Cho) just after he ended his own life. Total time: 7 minutes.

    In 7 minutes Cho shot 55 people in Norris Hall. 30 dead and 25 wounded.

    Entire time of incident from first 911 call at 9:46 a.m. until the officers heard the last shot of Cho killing himself at approximately 9:54 a.m., is only SEVEN MINUTES (based on statements from officers who were on the scene)


    Tom Perroni
    Perroni's Tactical Training Academy
    www.perronitactical.com

  10. #10
    Member Array Mass-Diver's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    204
    [QUOTE=DCJS Instructor;410268]
    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    from: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...817.shtml?s=ic

    I think even Grossman missed the point as well. Armed response by someone ALREADY ON THE SCENE, would have made the biggest difference.

    Well here is what I know for fact..........

    (2) two S.W.A.T Teams were at the school at the time of the shootings at the parade fields getting ready to do a training exercise. And from the time the first shot's were fired in Noris Hall they made entry and got to the Shooter (Cho) just after he ended his own life. Total time: 7 minutes.

    In 7 minutes Cho shot 55 people in Norris Hall. 30 dead and 25 wounded.

    Entire time of incident from first 911 call at 9:46 a.m. until the officers heard the last shot of Cho killing himself at approximately 9:54 a.m., is only SEVEN MINUTES (based on statements from officers who were on the scene)


    Tom Perroni
    Perroni's Tactical Training Academy
    www.perronitactical.com

    But he killed two people smoethign like an hour earlier and they failed to shut down the campus, do a sweep, etc. That's the huge mistake here, there was a shooter loose on campus and the adminstration didn't let anyone know.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Shelby County TN
    Posts
    11,133
    A good read, thanks for posting it.

    He's a very knowledgeable man and should be listened to. I doubt the eggheads will listen to him though.
    ,=====o00o _
    //___l__,\____\,__
    l_--- \___l---[]lllllll[]
    (o)_)-o- (o)_)--o-)_)

  12. #12
    VIP Member
    Array goawayfarm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Fork Union, Virginia
    Posts
    2,699
    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post

    Well here is what I know for fact..........

    (2) two S.W.A.T Teams were at the school at the time of the shootings at the parade fields getting ready to do a training exercise. And from the time the first shot's were fired in Noris Hall they made entry and got to the Shooter (Cho) just after he ended his own life. Total time: 7 minutes.

    In 7 minutes Cho shot 55 people in Norris Hall. 30 dead and 25 wounded.

    Entire time of incident from first 911 call at 9:46 a.m. until the officers heard the last shot of Cho killing himself at approximately 9:54 a.m., is only SEVEN MINUTES (based on statements from officers who were on the scene)


    Tom Perroni
    Perroni's Tactical Training Academy
    www.perronitactical.com
    DCJS,

    You missed my point entirely. By 'armed response' I'm saying if somebody IN THE BUILDING HAD BEEN ARMED......as in concealed carry, things may have turned out a lot better!

    To be disarmed by ANY institution in the name of 'safety' is abhorrent to me! To be forced to be a tethered goat in the name of political correctness is just plain WRONG! I don't care if law enforcement had an office NEXT DOOR, this miscreant Cho CHAINED THE DOORS. This would have delayed ANY LEO response....no matter how near or far away.

    ANY DELAY, no matter how short, costs lives that day. In Grossman's article (I was more trying to emphasize his 4 D's), I like his intent but he didn't go far enough to advocate armed citizens. That is where I think he 'missed the point'. He had the perfect opportunity to say what everybody here thinks........

    We aren't the bad guys & when in a place that is a target, we should be allowed to defend ourselves! I'd rather be safe, than have the illusion of safety.
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper

  13. #13
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    431
    Goawayfarm,

    I misunderstood. Sorry about that! However please note that I agree with you! I believe an armed society is a polite society.


    Tom

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. "Blue Force Gear" and "eCop! Police Supply" Review
    By Medic218 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 30th, 2012, 06:31 PM
  2. (Open carry) "Help, Officer, he brandished his weapon at me!"..."No i didn't!!"
    By RR9501 in forum Open Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: October 9th, 2010, 02:48 PM
  3. Smith & Wesson Model 40 "Classic" "Lemon Squeezer"
    By randytulsa2 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: February 10th, 2008, 06:30 AM
  4. A True Texas Tale: "Bad Guy" "One", "Old Man" "Zero"
    By Rock and Glock in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: March 17th, 2006, 09:50 AM

Search tags for this page

col grossman deter detect
,
david grossman deter detect
,
delay and defend and training and public schools
,
detect delay defence
,

deter delay detect respond

,
deter detect defend delay defeat .ppt
,
deter detect delay
,
deter detect delay example
,

deter detect delay response

,
deter, delay respond
,
deter, detect, delay amd respond
,
lt grossman, detect
Click on a term to search for related topics.