MS13 - gangs in general

[jdsumner]

F, QK,
thanks gentlemen. I guess my area has not had the 'pleasure' of this company, yet. We still are coping with WestSide and Latin Kings. The answere for all, I'm afraid, is going to be overcoming violence with greater violence. God be with us all.

Dan

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[rocky]

If you are in your vehicle, use it as a weapon. Also trunk guns, forethought actions as you pick up possible trouble and a winning attitude will help. If ya take out 1 or 2 the rest most likely will be headed the other way. More ammo will only help so much.

[ExSoldier]

QK, thanks for the rundown on MS13. That is considerably MORE than our school administration told us at the last faculty meeting when we were informed that MS13 was operating within SIX BLOCKS of our inner city high school and they said..."Don't worry the police have it all under control....."

[P95Carry]

"Don't worry the police have it all under control....."

Yeah, right!!! If truth be known, I'd reckon the cops are more than a little concerned about these scumbags. Something to be VERY aware of methinks.

[ExSoldier]

Scott made me think a bit after mentioning about MS13 on another thread. I cannot but help wonder how things might go down, if somehow cornered by a bunch of them.

By all accounts - weaponry could included machetes - plus in many cases too guns no doubt. I imagine a scene where I am at a red light and a group of MS13 - or any gang come to that - see my vehicle and decide the color sucks - and want to ''get it on'' (may have been a slack day for capping people!). I have no avenue of easy escape.

This immediately brings up one big factor - ammo - and quantity thereof! Now on an average day - I am just 15+1 - well enough you'd think to deal with most things (and some). However - imagine four not so friendly, all armed, itinerant gangstas - I really then would be glad if I had at least one mag change ... foreseeing that if it went down badly - there could be one big load of shooting.

So - rambling again - gangs - the threat thereof - and how this might affect spare ammo carry - thoughts and advice etc?

These days my backups are situational dependent: If I'm close to home, it's my Glock M27 and a 10rd backup or my Sig P245 and an eight rd backup. If I'm in "Indian Country" then it's a M22 (15rd back up) for the Glock OR TWO 8rd backups (or more) for the Sig P245.

When I was really young and REALLY stupid....that is....when I was an active duty Second Lieutenant of Infantry, I'd likely as not have taken some of me mates who also held CCW's and gone looking for a scrap. "Cops having trouble? Call the US Army!" And gotten quickly killed for my bravado and stupidity. Being a little older and hopefully wiser now, I have to think carefully in advance in light of some vital training and experience gained since leaving active duty.

When I was a State Probation and Parole Officer I learned some vital things:
1. Real "Bangers" like those found in MS13 have very little fear of death. It's almost as if they fear LIFE more. Death is a constant companion and each has seen close friends borne away by the reaper. They will not be intimidated by the thought of getting killed or arrested.
2. Average citizens going about they're daily lives probably have little to fear from a gang unless they are somehow drawn into a "situation" either as target of opportunity or more likely as a witness to a crime.
3. If you're targeted and you're unable to detect the attack and thwart it in some way, you're probably toast. Depends on the range. Multiple attackers, extremely close contact at initiation of hostilities? I think they'd be overconfident (especially seeing an old, gray bearded overweight fart like me). My only hope to survive would be sudden massive intense and lethally focused violence. Very bloody, very spectacular. Crush and rip out a windpipe; rip off an ear; slice an achilles tendon (with Spyderco) and THEN draw for retention shooting stance!

If the range is longer and you're targeted, draw and take cover. Try not to let them flank you. Get on the cell and call 911. Stay low. Try not to contemplate The Battle of Hastings, The Alamo or Diem Bien Phu.

4. If you're a witness....well this is where the older and wiser part might come into play. Were I single, I MIGHT testify and hang the retaliation....bring it on! But I'm not single. Am I willing to risk the life of my wife and family on a corrupted Criminal Justice system that will only turn the bad guy loose AND give him my home address? Because once engaged a gang (especially a brutal one like MS13) will not back off....NOT EVER. You'll have an enduring war like legendary mountainman Jeremiah Johnson and the Crow Indian tribe. Or the fictional Mack Bolan and the mob. I'm too old for that crap.

[QKShooter]

Some "people of authority" in this country had best wake up pretty doggone quick & not let this particular gang get any more of a foothold.

[P95Carry]

QK - the worrying thing is the ''foothold'' is already more than serious! This is why I brought this up.

I fully expect to never be even close to these thugs - relishing as I do the area in which I live. But sure as heck - would not want to be in their ''hood'' without serious retaliatory capability! It is hard to believe we have vermin like this in our midst.

[ExSoldier]

QK - the worrying thing is the ''foothold'' is already more than serious! This is why I brought this up.

I fully expect to never be even close to these thugs - relishing as I do the area in which I live. But sure as heck - would not want to be in their ''hood'' without serious retaliatory capability! It is hard to believe we have vermin like this in our midst.

Six blocks from where I work and my best protection is a rolled up newspaper--which I'm still capable of using to the point of death...but I'd really rather avoid having to do so.

[rfurtkamp]

It's not MS13, but recently some gang folk out here came off the local Indian reservation and went trying to kick in people's doors on the outskirts of town. They cut up one man and forced him and his family into hiding, tried my friend's house in the middle without success, and moved on to the next where they tore up an empty house of valuables and plaster for a while until the police caught them.

The admitted number was in excess of six - my friend thought what would have happened had he answered the door with his 13 round Glock mag, and at that moment, finally understood the "paranoia" I brought with from Chicago, where chances are no amount of ammo I can carry would be enough if things really hit the fan.

I've half joked I carry less than thirty seconds of ammo, which is probably about right.
I don't want to think about 6-1 odds. I'm not coming home in one piece against that in very real terms, and I know it. Even with 18 in the stick and another 17 in another and another 17 in another and five rounds in the snub, I'm loaded for bear and have either massive overkill for a 'regular' situation or can't have enough.

That's one of the reasons I keep a FAL in the trunk of the car, ready to roll. It won't save me, but it's something to fight towards.

I've had the luxury of 1-1 odds precisely once in the last dozen times I've had to touch a firearm in anger. I know I'm a good shot under stress - but I figure that 18 rounds gets me three dropped BGs most of the time, regardless of caliber or situation. Anything more than that is gravy.

[SSKC]

Now on an average day - I am just 15+1 - well enough you'd think to deal with most things (and some).

If you choose to carry an auto, IMHO you should always carry at least one spare mag. Like a spare tire, I feel a spare mag is a "must have," even if there is no perceived higher threat level. If you think MS13 justifies carrying more, go for it, but always have at least one spare (for Mr. Murphy).

My $0.02.

SSKC

[QKShooter]

The mag is the weakest link in any semi~auto firearm (long or short gun) and fully 85%+ of all otherwise properly cleaned and working firearm FTF & FTFunction Weapon Failure can be traced back to either an incompatible, defective, dirty, or Out Of Spec. magazine. Just F.Y.I.
Extra/Spare Magazines are a very GOOD thing to have with you!

[doc Russia]

when I do have problems with a 1911, it is almost always due to bad mags. There are some which I have noticed are less reliable, and those I save for the range. The Wilsons and Chip McCormicks are the ones I carry. I also increase the number of spare mags dependant upon perceived threat level. Running to the store in broad daylight during the morning or lunchtime? no spare. Going to be out and about in the afternoon? one spare mag. Going to be out and about after dusk? 2 spare mags.
There's also a .308 in the truck if I can get to it.
I also follow the rule of 3's;
almost all gunfights on the street will take place at 3 meters or less, in 3 seconds or less, and will be decided in 3 shots or less.
As such, I train to draw from concealment, and fire three rounds into three targets' hearts at 9 meters in under 3 seconds.
I am not there yet, but I am working on it.

I am just playing the odds. The odds are that if there are more than three targets, either they are outgunned, but not outnumbered( where I can probably shoot my way to disengagement), or I am dead meat anyway, and I try to take as many of the ******** with me as I can, but won't likely get to expend more than 1 magazine, anyway.

Sure, there is the one-in-a-million chance that I will be caught in some sort of wierd situation where I will need a lot of ammo, but the odds are better that I will be in some wierd situation where all that extra ammo will drown me when I fall into a large body of water.