Try this for size! - Page 2

Try this for size!

This is a discussion on Try this for size! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have my chinese delivered. You ring, we bring!...

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  1. #16
    Member Array Lawrence Keeney's Avatar
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    I have my chinese delivered. You ring, we bring!


  2. #17
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    Lawrence - doubt I have had a chance to say Hi and welcome
    I have my chinese delivered. You ring, we bring!
    Did you mean ''You ling - we bling'' Apologies to my Chinese friends.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  3. #18
    Member Array Jim_Linch's Avatar
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    Why does it always degrade to the "flied lice" jokes?


    We had a Narc Lt. shoot at a guy for throwing Chinese food at him, good thing for the perp he was a lousy shot. Chinese food... "the other dangerous weapon..."

  4. #19
    Membership Revoked Array clubsoda22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Linch
    1. Distract with a question to break OODA loop...
    2. I spin to my left...
    3. Blocking away the "gun" with my left forearm...
    4. Hook under his shoulder, moving into an arm bar take down...
    5. When hand is behind his shoulder I apply a elbow smash to is face with right arm..
    6. Repeat step 4 several times...
    7. Take knee out or groin if possible...
    8. Arm bar onto ground...
    9. Pull weapon, place barrel on BG's head...
    10. Say "do you feel lucky, punk?"

    Ride tickertape parade... wake up... :)
    I know the move well. It's fast and ferocious. You forgot one step however: During that armbar, assess to see whether it was his finger or a gun.

    Okay, lets say it was a gun. arm bar exicuted, the gun is now facing the opposite direction, feel sorry for anyone standing behind him. Being left handed, i can not access my sidearm while maintaining the armbar. This guy is getting the pocket folder disarm. And i do mean disarm. Very messy.

    we did a lot of contact distance shooting in my last tactical handgun class and i've been eager to give it a try.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array CombatEffective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Thx CE - I am as ever - exploring all avenues etc.

    Your badge - you mean the ''shoot-me-quick'' deal?? Joking aside - indeed that is not always the most useful thing on your person.

    Stay safe.
    True enough, but it lets me carry places that a CCW doesn't. Don't you just hate it when SCOTUS won't step up and clear up all of this carry law nonsense and just enforce the 2nd Amendment?

  6. #21
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    From experience in FOF simulators, I'd think very carefully about a situation like this. It is extremely dangerous and not necessarily a matter of out shooting one BG. That "finger" you feel in your back may very well be his finger. He may be protecting his gun in his other hand. So we block his finger and get shot by the gun in the other hand.

    On the other hand you may very well block his gun, only to have his "tailgunner" shoot you. A tailgunner is a method inmates teach in prisons these days - always have a tailgunner for back-up. He looks like everyone, he may even have his hands raised like everyone else, except of course he's there to backup his partner in case there are armed citizens, off duty officers, an armed propietor or any other kind of hero.

    Then suppose the BG is all alone, you manage to block his gun, he partially blocks your gun and one of your bullets hit the owner, an employee, or customer. Guess who is liable for that bullet?

    This is an extremely dangerous situation, it could evolve in many ways and anything can happen. I'd try to do nothing until it was apparent that I had no choice. If we have no choice, then we must act and worry about consequences later.
    Last edited by Tangle; May 2nd, 2005 at 03:37 PM.

  7. #22
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    It's Not Funny

    "Why does it always degrade to the "flied lice" jokes?"

    Stlict Modalator Warning:
    People ~ This is a Pletty Good Thlead.
    Prease...Prease Do Not A~rowell It To Get Degladed!



    Last edited by QKShooter; May 2nd, 2005 at 05:01 PM.

  8. #23
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    Sorry QK - I consider knuckles rapped!!

    Tangle - good post - you raise even more factors that do indeed make this whole situation - more than a little ''hairy''. Sure as heck hope it stays well and truly, in the ''imagined'' folder.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  9. #24
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    Thumbs up Tangle ~ Good Points

    I love these web scenarios & I hate them at the same time.
    We can only ever base our response on the information available & usually there is highly detailed and intrinsic information sorely lacking.
    So...with the scene and "stage" not completely "set" it's nearly impossible to cover all bases & come up with a workable "real life" solution.
    I like your finger and gun point. That is something important to think about.
    I believe that (if I understand it correctly) in this particular situation the restaurant is empty save for the owner "The Forum Member Good Guy" and the gun wielding Bad Guy.
    Last edited by QKShooter; May 2nd, 2005 at 06:35 PM. Reason: mispielled worde korrection
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  10. #25
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    I love these web scenarios & I hate them at the same time.
    Haha - me too in a way, tho I was ''guilty'' of inflicting this one!

    In fact I envisaged - and may not have clarified, that ''we'' are standing in line - BG comes in to stand behind. No one else behind him or to sides. However - open to what you wish to visualize - ''we'' are in a queue and that might be one guy ahead of us or more. Behind counter is owner. So everyone is more or less in line. I daresay it would take little imagination to envisage a move by ''us'' leading to a bullet hitting the guy in front or the owner!!

    Of course - no way on earth we can ever successfully reach a strategic solution - way too many variables, plus we all maybe would plan differently etc. It is simply an excercize in possible tactics - it cannot be more. As I have said, or intimated tho - the reason these scenarios are of interest is purely that they open the mind to other possibilities. Hardly training at all but - expanding one's thought process just a bit maybe. Better than vegetating!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  11. #26
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    Exclamation P95Carry

    Well, one thought that everybody had best ponder is...If caught up in a messy situation ~ Wherever It May Be ~ Bank ~ Grocery Store ~ Chinese Restaurant ~ The Mall ~ Anywhere where you are armed...Are You/We/Us/Me going to "Follow Bad Guy Instructions" & "Face The Wall" or "Kneel Down" or "Lie Face Down" or "Get Walked Into The Back Store Room" for an armed and spastic aggressor?
    I thought "Long And Hard" about that ~ I have my mind made up & I will never Exit Planet Earth "Execution Style" like a Sacrificial Sheep.
    That is NOT TO SAY that I have any sort of "Death Wish" but, I'll bank on my own personal skill advantage & shooting expertise to hopefully get me through it all. I do not have one ounce of victim mentality stored in my brain.
    Maybe I'll make it and maybe I won't but, I'll surely not be peeing in my pants waiting/kneeling around for the "eternal echo of a click & boom back~of~the~head~shot"
    Nope Sorry! This is not macho talk.
    I am not willing to put my life into the hands of some drug crazed moronic idiot scumbag & letting him decide (in between head rushes and delusions) if I live or die or...just get shot in both legs to teach me a lesson.
    I'll take my chances with multiple bullets & at least I will go with a half smile on my face because I gave some worthless BG a really really bad day.
    If any of you see me hit the ground then close my eyes and put coins on both eyelids...and don't use pennies...you cheapskates!
    Last edited by QKShooter; May 2nd, 2005 at 07:38 PM. Reason: misspielled worde

  12. #27
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    I was just thinking about that as we watched a movie last night. The bad guy tells two people to turn around and kneel an the ground while he has a gun on them. Not in this lifetime. It's pretty obvious what he has in store for you and in that situation, I assume I might as well come completely unglued. No time for, "well, I don't want to do this because...."
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  13. #28
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    Addition. Slightly Off Topic

    One thing that I really need to do is to learn to identify what exact illegal drugs people are "on" by their actions.
    Of course these days the idiots use all sorts of different ones...all at the same time...so who really knows anymore exactly what these habitual drug heads are bombed out on? The only thing that they all have in common is that they ALL need money.
    I think the latest "drug cocktail" is grass, speed, cocaine, & ecstasy...all at once! :vollkomme
    I wonder what that crazy combination does to the human brain?
    Years ago one of my relatives (who owned a dry cleaning shop) had one of his unarmed older employees fatally shot in the chest because some nutcase "customer" was POed that his clothes weren't ready that day.
    When I was really young I saw (first hand) a bus driver get a knife stuck in his throat because he wouldn't open the door & let a rider off the bus without him first paying his .95 cents.
    So...needless to say...I have not much in the way of any "learned trust" that panicked bad Guys are ever going to do the right thing.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  14. #29
    Member Array Jim_Linch's Avatar
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    Do something... even if it's wrong! You will never pull off a tactical scenario 100%. There is always risk to others when a weapon is involved. Weigh the risks and act. Assume the finger is a gun, don't be stupid.

  15. #30
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    I agree guys, when the "Face The Wall" or "Kneel Down" commands are given, that's a clear indicator to me that we are in a fight or die situation. The BG may only intend for the kneeling down, etc. just to give him a bit more time to escape the scene. But it may very well mean he intends to kill everyone. We don't have any way to read his mind and we cannot take the chance - we must act. In fact, if it's come to that point, we probably should have already taken action.

    The point of my former post was to make the point - be sure what you're getting into and who the players are before you make a move. Maybe we can't cover all the bases, we may not even have time to analyze the situation, but we need to stack everything in our favor that we can.

    I believe the value of scenario posts are that we get to visualize a situation, put ourselves in that situation, state our solution to the problem and then read the input from others. If in doing these scenarios, we discover new issues to be aware of then we are that much better off.

    In this scenario as originally posted, there was "you", the owner, and the BG behind you - that you were aware of. Could a cook be the BGs partner? Is there someone in the restroom? It's just things to consider and be prepared for.

    To be honest, hardly any of my thoughts are original, but come from FOF training primarily at Gunsite. I had one FOF scenario that I thought I had pretty much analyzed. A BG was just about to shoot a cook in a resturant, the four "customers" were on their knees with their hands on their heads. I had good concealment, if not cover; I had distance and surprise on the BG. So I shot him. I felt a sting on the edge of my hand and realized somebody had shot me. And while I was able to fire four rapid shots onto the "tailgunner", I was essentially dead.

    A valid question for the scenario originally posted, would be "You're the only customer in the resturant, it's late at night, so how did this guy come in and get behind you in such a position without you being aware of it? Could awareness prevent the entire situation? Very likely. Because of mistakes I've made in training, I make an effort to be much more aware of what's going on around me, but I've got a long ways to go.

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