Your thoughts and opinions please - Page 2

Your thoughts and opinions please

This is a discussion on Your thoughts and opinions please within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Rob72 Might want to let your dad know, lights w/o a gun is a great way to get shot- the punk will ...

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  1. #16
    me [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    Might want to let your dad know, lights w/o a gun is a great way to get shot- the punk will certainly know he's not LE, the moment he steps out with a radio, and no gun, in hand.
    His would have been visible on his side as OC is legal and he carries OWB... that is if he thought to grab it. His carry habits have improved with a new gun but are not great nor does he carry in the house si he would have had to grab a gun first. I believe he was on the couch when it happened so he would have been 3 steps from the gun and then 5 from the front door. Instead he would have run down stairs, opened the garage and pulled his truck around? for what purpose? to scare them. This to me seems dumb when he could have been out the door with gun on hip and IDing on the phone to dispatch in less time.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones


  2. #17
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    Lots of good advice.... HotGuns had a good post as well... True Gang Bangers will take a life indiscriminately and not give it a second thought. Don't care if it's your mom or your sis. And they like "retribution!"

    Rob72 is right as well... I'm gonna FU Up is assault and if he had stated that coupled with getting out of the car and approaching in a menacing way or with a fight posture, I would draw and challenge or draw and shoot depending on what transpires in real time.

    If Homey had a weapon upon exiting his vehicle I wouldn't even warn him... His lights would go out before he blinked.

    What you described was a very dynamic situaton and as I and many others have said before... You have to call it as you see it as it plays out before you!

    Nothing I say here in retrospect or without all minute details as being there in person, first hand really matters.

    All in all... I think you did OK! No one died, no one got hurt. No harm No foul.

    However... Things aren't always as they appear. Just because he looks like a gang banger and talks like a gang banger doesn't mean he IS a gang banger... extreme caution should be used when making judgements about that.

    And I agree... sis needs to learn some restraint and keep "piehole" shut, I believe was the term used.... Good Advice there.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  3. #18
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    Depending on how quickly Mark (me) could have got to his firearm while seated in his vehicle...absolutely his firearm should have been clear of leather as soon as he heard an aggressive, violent threat being uttered.
    While normally I would say that the home driveway should have been passed up so as not to reveal a home location/residence that is realistically a bit much (in the way of quick reactionary thinking) to expect from a young 16 year old new driver that just suffered through that situation so close to home.
    I think you did fine because should you have needed your firearm in this instance - you would have needed it in an awfully big hurry where even a second or two could determine/alter the final outcome.
    You did fine.
    It's wise to remember that your Sister should not have said anything out her window.
    Even though what she yelled was not aggressive and was really nothing more than informative.
    Often person/persons cannot tell exactly WHAT was said out a car window and only that somebody yelled or said something out the window.
    A 16 year old unarmed female with a 13 year old passenger in the car should not be yelling anything in anger to any other driver in any situation where it could possibly prompt a violent physical reaction.

    Also remember that if you are a skilled driver and you are in your car then your car should be considered to be your primary weapon (if possible) and your primary firearm your Back Up.
    A car has much more effective Stopping Power then a bullet and it's harder to miss.
    So (if possible) use your vehicle as your first weapon of choice before you automatically decide to exit it.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  4. #19
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    [QUOTE=Rob72;410516]"Running his mouth" is assault, "F U Up!", is expressed intent to do grievous bodily harm- good enough to draw. The intent is certainly there. QUOTE]

    With all due respect, Rob, I would not want to have to defend a case where a weapon was drawn, escalating the confrontation, resulting in deadly force being used in response to someone running his mouth, even if what was said was I am going to FU Up!"

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  5. #20
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    Ron, I agree.... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "I'm gonna FU Up!" is a verbal threat leading to the jeopardy component of the lethal force triad. That alone does not warrant drawing a gun.

    However if the gang banger produced a gun from inside the vehicle or stepped out of the vehicle and approached her vehicle with some sort of clubbed weapon, knife or just a fighting posture, then the components ability and opportunity quickly materialize and come into play!

    At that point I would feel it would be warranted to either Challenge the man verbally, Draw and Challenge the man, or Just Shoot him outright, depending on the circumstances at the time.

    The latter choice of "just shooting him outright" would be reserved for the assailant producing a firearm of his own either inside or outside of his vehicle.

    Again, these are very fluid and dynamic situations that have a tendency to play out in a matter of seconds and then someone ends up dead or dying. Evaluations and decisions must be made in an instant and dire consequences lay in the balance.

    At the very least, the kid was rightous to be on alert with hand on weapon ready to respond while he remained in his truck behind his sister and mother carefully observing how it was going to play out and how things escalated from there.

    I don't think the brother should insert himself into the mix unless the gang banger got out of his vehicle with intent to harm his sister or produced a weapon. If he did insert himself into the confrontation too early, it could very well challenge the gang banger into more aggression because as seen in the gang banging culture as disrespecting him and challenging him to a fight and in effect escalating the situation needlessly.

    JMHO, Ron, please respond if you have any additional advice here.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #21
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    Me, I think you "done good" buddy; but I do have a question or two for some of our senior members. Please don't construe this in any way to mean I'm second guessing you, I'm not.

    I've been visting the site for a while now, and I'm sure there are hundreds of posts here that very specifically say that you shouldn't pull your firearm unless your life is threatened. Where's the ability? The opportunty? The jeopardy? This isn't intended to start a flame war, but to solicit specific thoughts on the issue. Myself? I think this was a highly dynamic and inflammatory situation. Adrenalin starts pumping and training has to take over. From several posts, I "heard" the poster say things like, "had the guy got out of the car and started walking over, he would have drawn."

    Actually, I may have too .. you just have to be there, but .. would it stand up? Certainly you can't shoot someone because he said he's going to F U up. What about all the dicussion about hand to hand training, mace, kubatons, etc? I'm just not sure that had you cleaned the gene pool, and this gangbanger ended up being unarmed at the time, you'd be in the clear legally. Thoughts?

    Again Me, you done good buddy. You didn't show your hand, but you were ready. I hope I can do as well if the time comes.

    Cray

  7. #22
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    Sorry about that Bark'n, I missed your post some how. That's exactly what I was looking for.

    Cray

  8. #23
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    If I drew my weapon on everyone that said they were going to F me U, or any other such words..... I would go through a dozen holsters a year and develop carpal tunnel!
    http://www.odmp.org/

    Defensor Fortis
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  9. #24
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    No prob, cray... if you need any further clarification, don't hesitate to post again.

    Or search out some of my other posts. I have, as well as many others here, have posted in great detail our interpretations of what comprises justifiable use of lethal force

    Remember, most of us here are not attorney's and there is no substitute for seeking advice from a criminal defense attorney or taking classes from any of the recognized shooting schools when you can afford to do so.

    Still all of us here are willing to help and provide our "opinions" free of charge. Just remember they are nothing more than opinions, albiet often times based on lots of experience and training.

    I appreciate your posts!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by me View Post
    Out of the back seat comes the head of this gang banger looking guy (2 persons in the vehicles, white woman driving and African American male in the Rear Pass seat) and he starts screaming "FU FU you MFer I'm gonna FU up".

    As my sister is pulled into the front yard directly in front of our porch behind the guard rail this car slows down like it is going to pull in to our house.
    Words of warning: they now know where you live. Caution is due.

    Did you get a license plate number? Have the police been notified of this situation?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    You should NEVER draw your weapon until threatened with great bodily harm. Someone yelling at you is no reason to draw your weapon. In my opinion.

    I avoid conflict at ALL costs and as a CWP holder you and your family should as well. You have that added responsibility as a CWP holder.

    It was innapropriate for them to run the stop sign, however it was even more innapropriate for your little sister to escalate the situation any further. She is the one who put the entire family in danger when being quiet would have just made the situation a close call on the road.

    I would have a talk to your entire family and anyone you hang out with about not escalating situations, being calm and quiet, and avoiding conflict at all costs. This is the burden of responsibility of the CWP holder.

    Maybe not what you wanted to hear, Just my .02

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    You should NEVER draw your weapon until threatened with great bodily harm. Someone yelling at you is no reason to draw your weapon.
    But multiple bangers threatening to "F you up" absolutely is worth elevating the level of preparedness. There's "drawing" and then there's drawing. If done out of sight and just in case, that's one thing. Done directly in front of someone as a blatant warning is something completely different and not (so far as I can tell) what was reported in the OP's story.

    It was innapropriate for them to run the stop sign, however it was even more innapropriate for your little sister to escalate the situation any further.
    According to the OP's story, 'My little sister commented out the widow, "There is a stop sign there." ' Not on any day of the week is that an escalation to violence. Nobody but a perp would take it as such, as these houdlums seem to have done. That's a simple comment, if spoken in the manner and tone specified in the story. It is decidedly not incitement to violence. Neither is having watched the houdlums as they got worked up, despite that they probably thought she was "dissing" them in some foul and egregious manner. Not.

    Castle Doctrine. Whether on the legal books or not, generally speaking folks have a right to be in any place they're legally allowed to be, particularly on a public street simply driving along. To comment to someone else that there's a stop sign is not, under any circumstances short of screaming it as a threat, an incitement to violence nor a itself a violent act. The bangers in the car showed callous disregard for others, by blowing the traffic controls, then got highly worked up and made strong verbal threats. IMO, the combination of actions on the part of these perps justified elevated precautions. Would a jury of one's peers feel the same? Sheep that most are, not unless they could be put in the place of the witnesses, feeling the rising anger of the perps and the sinking fear of the victims. But, such is life, to help such innocents see the world for what it is, not what they wish it to be.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  13. #28
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post

    According to the OP's story, 'My little sister commented out the widow, "There is a stop sign there." ' Not on any day of the week is that an escalation to violence.


    You miss the point. Yelling out the window at another car escalated things, period.

    Commented? Try commenting to a car passing you. You need to YELL to get them to hear you.

    As a CCW holder it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY and the responsibility of others with you NOT TO ESCALATE a situation. Yelling out the window at another car I.E. Roadrage escalates things.

    If his little sister had kept her mouth shut there wouldn't have been a confrontation.

    You cannot justify this no matter how you try to spin it. Carrying a CW is a lifestly that DEMANDS humility and good judgement.

    You cannot go around road raging at people ( or having your family and friends do the same) for running stop signs, cutting you off, etc. , getting in confrontations (whether or not the other person is right or wrong makes no difference), then drawing your weapon in self defense.

    That is the most IRRESPONSIBLE thing I can think of in terms of concealed carry.

    His sister put her life and the lives of others in danger by escalating the situation with comments.

    You never know what hot headed phsyco is going to go off the handle, especially in traffic. As a CCW holder it is YOUR responsibility to avoid conflict at all costs, not start it.

    You start talking about castle doctrine and self defense and justification, I am talking about responsibility, humility, and conflict avoidance.

    Think about it. Someone could have been shot and KILLED over a near miss in traffic. I have 2 to 3 a week. I don't go around escalating the situation and grabbing my weapon to defend myself.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    You miss the point. Yelling out the window at another car escalated things, period.
    That's not was was stated in the OP's write-up. I don't care what most people experience in fast-flowing traffic situations. There is simply not enough information in the story to infer the sister must have howled in rage to get her voice heard. "Road rage?" Simple comments? Not in this world. Not even in the USA in 2007; not yet, thankfully.

    The specific case in question indicated a "comment out the window." Only if the cars are flyin' by or at a great distance is any real volume required. And, if going less than 20mph at the time, it's not unlikely that a basic comment spoken quickly and in surprise gets through to the other driver. Lived in a smaller town for 25yrs where the average statement on the smaller streets could easily be heard a couple/three cars away, even with a number of cars in traffic.

    Legally, mere comments are not disallowed nor seen as a threat. Neither are they an escalation. Not even if made in surprise, nor loudly. Threats, however, are. It's the flagrant, angry and violent response of the perps that's the escalation. The actions, anger and threats of these bangers in the stop-sign-blowing car, in fact.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #30
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    That's not was was stated in the OP's write-up. I don't care what most people experience in fast-flowing traffic situations. There is simply not enough information in the story to infer the sister must have howled in rage to get her voice heard. "Road rage?" Simple comments? Not in this world. Not even in the USA in 2007; not yet, thankfully.

    The specific case in question indicated a "comment out the window." Only if the cars are flyin' by or at a great distance is any real volume required. And, if going less than 20mph at the time, it's not unlikely that a basic comment spoken quickly and in surprise gets through to the other driver. Lived in a smaller town for 25yrs where the average statement on the smaller streets could easily be heard a couple/three cars away, even with a number of cars in traffic.

    Legally, mere comments are not disallowed nor seen as a threat. Neither are they an escalation. Not even if made in surprise, nor loudly. Threats, however, are. It's the flagrant, angry and violent response of the perps that's the escalation. The actions, anger and threats of these bangers in the stop-sign-blowing car, in fact.
    FACT: If she had said NOTHING the car would have kept driving.

    FACT: She made a comment and endangered her whole family

    Regardless of right or wrong. Humility and avoidance would have not put them in the situation and her comments did ZERO good

    Constraint goes a long way in this world. I am done with this arguement because it frustates me that so many CW permit holders do not practice or preach constraint.

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