Your thoughts and opinions please
This is a discussion on Your thoughts and opinions please within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by azchevy
FACT: If she had said NOTHING the car would have kept driving.
Assumption, actually, given the comment wasn't threatening. We all ...
June 29th, 2007 09:56 AM
Assumption, actually, given the comment wasn't threatening. We all have responsibility in this world and it is not irresponsible to call a spade a spade, simply and matter-of-factly as (appears) was done.
Originally Posted by azchevy
We'll just have to see things differently on this one.
FACT: She made a comment and endangered her whole family
She made a comment that was neither illegal, threatening nor out of place. In all likelihood, its volume was elevated due to the surprise of having been threatened by a ~3000-lb vehicle like that. However, it's the verbal threats and angry delivery by the bangers that (legally) were the escalation and which endangered the whole family. The preparedness and defensive steps being done were in anticipation that those making the threats could easily act out on them. No amount of common speech commonly delivered constitutes a legal threat. It's not irresponsible and it can't really be taken as escalation.
Simply, nobody in his right mind should expect that the rightful and appropriate response to speaking the words "There's a stop sign" constitutes a threat in any way, unlike the angry, verbal threats by multiple young men in a car. That unwarranted, risingly-violent response, on any day, is itself an escalation and present threat.
Seems we'll have to have factual clarification by the OP, to add anything more than supposition.
Example situation: Someone's breaking into your car. You come around the corner of the house to see this going on. You ask what that person is doing. That, in itself, is not an escalation, threat or any legally-restricted type of speech. It is, on the other hand, a legitimate question by the owner of the car who's in the right to ask a simple question of a suspected burglar/robber. Now, any response by the suspect that goes beyond a simple reply can (and probably should) be taken as a threat ... including any physical movement toward you, movement toward a weapon, rising anger in the eyes/body, violent words or threats, etc. This sort of situation is played out relatively frequently, and the original question and approach by the car's owner simply is not taken as a threat, escalation or wrong in any way. It's the violence and urgency of the response by the suspect that's the threat, the escalation, the thing to be defended against. Hey, this is life. We're human. We speak. We have a right to protect ourselves against unwarranted or violent actions. This is one of them. Threats of violence from bangers in a car is one of them.
Restraint does. Agreed.
Constraint goes a long way in this world.
June 29th, 2007 10:25 AM
You are dead on. As CCW you "must" put yourself above the average person when it comes to theses types of encounters.
Taking a life is not a fun thing to do, and you "Should" do everything possible to avoid it, because right or wrong, you will always wonder. The little sister was the agressor here and she did escalated the situation to the next level. "Me" was ready and did fine, theses statements are directed to him saying " If he stoped I was drawing".
June 29th, 2007 12:18 PM
I am in agreement with ccw9mm, there is nothing wrong with what the sister said. It is ridiculous to claim that she escalated anything by calling out that there was a stop sign there. Even if stated in an angry manner (not surprising if she did, considering the close call she was just in, it is a bit of an adrenaline reaction) it was not in the least bit threatening. No, all the escalation was done by the passenger of the other car.
Is it better to not say anything? Sure, one can make that claim, but to state that the sister was escalating the situation? Nonsense.
June 29th, 2007 11:36 PM
We did not notify the police as I was the only one who say other stuff at the stop sight and my parents were not willing to believe what I saw. I was not in the car with her as I believe I stated, I was following her and to be honest there were only 3 cars on the road, her, me and the banger (or wanta-be) none were moving. I could not here her but my window was up and theirs were both down. I could however hear him threw my windows.
I agree she was wrong but I can not control her when I am in my own car. I practice restraint but I can not force anyone else to especially when I am not with them.
"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."
-James Earl Jones
July 1st, 2007 10:49 AM
In this day and age, all drivers need to practice keeping their opinions to themselves and not displaying gestures or even "looks" at offending other drivers or occupants. It's simply not worth the satisfaction of the act.That being said, we also need to be ready for other drivers or occupants to go postal at any time for any reason.I had a Harley driver with a passenger pull alongside my Blazer (I was passenger) and tell my wife that she was a a-hole and needed to learn to drive for some perceived infraction.Needless to say that was a foolish thing for the cycle driver to do under the circumstances and could have escalated into a real bad day for him had he went farther.Politeness is the best response.I smiled as I wished him a nice day after I told him to go F himself. I tried!!!
July 1st, 2007 01:00 PM
I've got to agree with this one........What one yells out a window can't always be heard from another vehicle. Someone with the mindset of a gangbanger ( or someone that just had a bad day ) is going to take it as a threat even if you yell anything.
Originally Posted by azchevy
The whole situation is likely to be avoided if no one yells ANYTHING. We likely wouldn't be having this conversation if she hadn't yelled out the window.
July 1st, 2007 02:48 PM
Then any spoken words are unreasonable, threatening, provocative speech, merely based on fears over how the lowest neanderthal mindset might take it? Not. Thankfully, the reasonable man standard still exists.
Originally Posted by robere
All of this assumes, of course, that the description of the "sister's" comments were in fact normal, regular words spoken not as a threat or taunt, but rather as a reminder of the simple fact at that intersection. Even if that weren't the case, the distinctions still hold true.
That anyone goes postal over normal spoken speech or everyday actions, even words spoken in surprise at elevated volumes in a stressful situation, does not make that speech or those actions threatening or a provocation. It's why there's a distinction between citizens and criminals, and why, dependent on how "postal" they go, even taking a life is warranted in the defense of one's self or others. That we're able to distinguish between certain speech and others, certain actions and others, and as to what constitutes menacing, threats and crimes is, frankly, what distinguishes us from the criminals.
I think we need to revisit the dictionary and better understand the meaning of words: provocation, threat, fighting words, crime, justification ... and probably a few others.
July 1st, 2007 02:48 PM
Your thoughts and opinions please
I think your actions and plans were just fine. You did mention that you would come out with weapon drawn IF the slugs got out of their car. At that point, I would protect my family by any means necessary.
First, with a 'get back in your car and live' or, take your chances now.".
I've never hurt or harmed anyone in my 58 years on earth and, I am also sick and tired of being afraid and pushed around by slugs who have no regard for life. Theirs or mine.
You did well. and, you were ready, willing and able to go further if they went further .
There are always been creeps and slugs, the difference is, now, they'll kill you without hesitation. We hesitate counter-action because we're the good guys. What a shame it has to be that way.
July 1st, 2007 04:09 PM
Well, you did the right thing this time. He threatened violence against a specific person, this shows specific intent if the attack is actually begun. If there is proximity and an ability to carry out a successful attack and if there's a weapon in sight...then you probably have the justification to draw. EVEN IF there's no weapon, it could be argued that there is an inherent risk of death or great bodily injury if the attack is perpetrated against the girl by a well muscled thug. Then you have "defense of a third party" as a affirmative defense in court should YOU be charged. I wouldn't draw unless there was a substantial risk of death and unless there were indications of a "committed intent to attack" eg thug exits the vehicle and SPRINTS at the girl. Look I teach these thugs all the time. They all over my classrooms and they have "tried me" more than once. However nobody has tried an actual attack nor threatened me....ever. They listen to voice timber and watch body language. They smell fear. Exhibit none of these attack inducers and you're okay. I've taught high school in the inner city for over 12 years.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
July 1st, 2007 08:51 PM
I agree that what the sister said, was free speech, probably not inflamatory and should not be construed as escalating a situation.
However, we all know the "confrontational" attitudes of gang bangers! Everything is taken as a slight, everything is taken as a "dis"! It seems like "any excuse" they can get to show their macho attitude and escalate into fear and intimidation. And from there, it's a hair trigger to violence and death.
While the girl had no idea her words would set someone off like that, and to any reasonable, rational person, it shouldn't... People who live where gang activity is prevalent, and I mean true violent gangs, such as MS-13 or the like, we do have to think before we blurt out things.
While we shouldn't have to be like that, we sometimes aren't dealing with normal rational people such as those in the gang culture.
Certainly it could go a long way to curtail escalating a situation to a violent encounter. And isn't that what we all want to avoid?
Yeah, the girl's remarks in and of them self, shouldn't be construed as escalating a situation with civilized reasonable people, but say something (anything) to the wrong crowd and you find yourself in the midst of a situation that can quickly grow out of your control.
Just food for thought. An opinion only.... open to debate.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
July 2nd, 2007 12:37 AM
Come on, cussing out somebodies sister is at least a butt whopping offense not to mention doing in front of your mom. Now threatening to F her up, thats a really good butt whooping.Coming by your house and yelling at your sister & mom - also a butt whooping. Isn't there a three strike rule?
But seriously, to me the 'escalation' of greatest concern isn't the comment made by the sister or the initial words out of the guy in the back seat, its that the car came (some how) back by the house. That is a problem on a whole different level from somebody cussing out your family at an intersection. They are both bad situations, but that is the real scary part. Being prepared for scary situations in my book is a good thing, if that means getting your gun out and holding out of sight in case it needs to come into sight or use - then that's what it means.
I personally see nothing wrong with telling a driver who almost hits you that they didn't see a stop sign. There are a lot of things wrong with America but this is not one of them.
Whatever me's sister said would of been obviously directed at the driver and not the passenger in the back seat. (Sounds like this dude was taking his role as a back seat driver way too seriously.)
I don't know anything about the laws in PA but I like to THINK that if this happened in Kentucky AND the threats by this guy had turned into actions a CCW holder drawing and/or IF a life was threatened shooting would be justified.
With all that has been said I think me acted in a reasonable manner, even showed great restraint in not chasing the punk down and slamming his head through the stop sign his driver missed.
And that's what I think about that.
Warning: I may have a warped sense of right and wrong. Maybe that should of been at the top
July 2nd, 2007 04:16 PM
Ok, I'm in this one late, but feel the need to comment. Firstly, the sisters comments, elevated or not, are irrelevant. The "FACT" of the matter is that she did in fact, make a statement. Second, at issue, is not only the verbal threat from what appeared to "ME" at the time as a "gangbanger", but also we have to take into account the vehicle slowing down, the passenger's demeanor/attitude, and body language. Of even more concern is if he had stopped the vehicle and gotten out or pulled a U-turn after making his verbal threats.
I'll agree with some in that the sisters comment MAY have escalated things, but on the other hand, once it was said, the other side escalated so far up the ladder that it DID warrant serious concern.
As to those who feel they don't need to be concerned until they see the BG get out of the vehicle with a gun or produce one from within the vehicle, I have one thought: You're not going to see that gun produced from within the vehicle until it's TOO LATE.
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